The Future of Canada

[Mithrandir]

If you don't yet about the crisis that is happening to the Canadian government, I suggest you read this post, it might help you. If you're just too lazy then just don’t read. I tried to make it short but this as short as I could get it.


As if you didn't know yet, the province of Quebec (being the only French speaking province of Canada tried to separate from Canada two times now. (Once in 1984 and another time in 1995) There's the "Parti Québécois" who has the objective of making of Quebec a country.

Why the separation? Well, historically, Quebec was founded and named by French colonists but then lose a battle to the English on September 13th 1759, a major battle in Quebec City (where I live ). General Wolfe and General Montcalm were killed in that battle.


But then, began the British era of the Province of Quebec and now, the majority of the people spoke French and the English wanted to impose the English language and protestant religion, and made them swear to the British crown, which was the worst thing for a French person. (If you don't know, when the queen came to Quebec December 27th 1963 and some separatists throwed tomatoes to the queen)


But anyway, all those changes did not please the people (and since the French were Catholics and speaking French). So that part was not liked by the majority of the people. Now, came the war in the US. Many Americans tried to convince people of the province of Quebec to join them (yes, Quebec could have been an American state). To dissuade the French people to join the Americans, the British let the Quebec people keep their language and religion, and also the French civil code. The criminal code was to become the English one. They even annexed a part of the Ohio valley to the province. As we know, the war was won by the Americans and the loyalist (to the British crown) people of the USA came to the Province of Quebec but did not like the conditions and laws made for the French. In order to solve the problem, in 1791, The Province was separated in two, the High Canada (Ontario) and the Lower Canada (Quebec). The Lower Canada province being mostly French, keeping its laws and the High Canada being mostly English having the English civil code and criminal code.


Then it stayed that way and the British introduced the parliamentary and elections were now common. There was a movement called “The patriots” in Quebec, which totally thought the French Canadians did not have as much rights as the English. So they started rebelling, burning the parliament which at the time was in Montreal. Then, they were mostly arrested by the British and the founder of the government exiled himself to the US preparing plans.


At that time the governors were still named by the crown (as they are still now). In 1840, they reunited the two provinces to form Canada. Politicians began to think about how Canada could become independent, having its own government and the way the constitution could be done. That was the work of French and English Canadians. One thing led to another and on July 1rst 1867, Canada was now independent from the British, it became a dominion. The Queen Victoria signed the British North American Act. There were now two levels of government: provincial and federal. They split the different responsibilities. Other provinces will join later in history to become what we are today.

Then later became the stature of Westminster, where the British crown said no British law could extent to the dominions or colonies. But they still kept allegiance to the crown.

Then in 1960, provincial liberals take control of the government in Quebec. After many years ruled by the dictatorial “Union Party”, it became an era of change for Quebec, freed from many thing (among those, big British and American companies) so they nationalised many services (like Hydroelectricity). With all those changed emerged the “RIN” which is “Group for the national independence”. They wanted again Quebec to separate…and all that idealism gave birth to a party: The “Parti Québécois”, founded by an ex-liberal minister: René Lévesque. The RIN was responsible for the


At the same time, on the federal scene arrived Pierre-Elliot Trudeau at the head of the federal liberal party. He was elected in 1968, reflecting vigour and bringing some changes to modernise Canada. He wanted to unify Canada so he adopts a law making French and English the two official languages of Canada. (Which divides Anglophones and doesn’t fully pleases the francophones). Trudeau had a big impact on Canada and IMO, it’s one of the best prime ministers we ever had. As you may know, he was someone not caring about the diplomatic things…he actually went to visit Fidel Castro causing the FBI to open a folder on him. If you want to know more on him here’s a link: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-74-73/people/trudeaumania/ He hated British monarchy and mocked it by doing a pirouette behind the Queen. He also visited John Lennon and Yoko Ono during their bed-in in Montreal. Anyway, he was special.

And now back to our topic, The Parti Québecois isn’t much popular at the time, the liberals being more popular. Seeing how the vote is controlled by rich Anglophones from Montreal (or so they say), the “RIN” gives birth to the “FLQ” “Quebec Liberation Front”, a more radical movement putting bombs and kidnapping people. They will create a crisis in 1970 by kidnapping the British commissioner James Cross. Five days later, Pierre Laporte, Quebec's labour minister, was also kidnapped on October 10th and was killed by members of the FLQ. That was what we call “The October crisis”. Trudeau for the first time ever in the Canadian history invocates the War Measures Act which is like a martial law. So the army takes control of Quebec and has the right to arrest anyone who is suspicious without reason. The crisis is solved and we don’t hear about it no more. In 1973, the RCMP stoles a list of the Parti Quebecois in Ham Operation, which was requested by Trudeau. That brings up questions among the population about the motives of that.


Then in 1976, the Parti Québécois wins the provincial election. He quickly adopts laws to protect French in Quebec. Among theses, you can’t go to an English school if neither of your parents went to English school. He also adopts a law recognising the rights of the English minority in Quebec. He also adopts a chart to protect the French language which is today highly debated. One of the things the law changed is that in Quebec, you have the right to be served in French and English. French has to predominate over English though. Whoever doesn’t respect it has to pay. In 1980 he will do a referendum on which the Quebec population has to decide if they want to separate from Canada or not. The “No” wins by a majority with the help of Trudeau’s campaign.

Then 1982, Trudeau repatriates the Canadian constitution to Ottawa, now cutting the last chain with England. He also adopts the chart of rights and freedoms, which is the highest law in the constitution. But while the premiers of each province discuss about the new Canadian constitution, Trudeau grows tired of Rene Levesque disagreements. He decided during a night of discussion to convocate secretly every premier except Rene Levesque and makes them sign the constitution. That was seen as an act of treason and we call that night “The Long Knife Night”…making allusion to the Friday the 13th movies. That upsets the Quebec population. On April 1982, The Queen signs the new constitution along with nine provinces. To this day, no Quebec premier has yet signed the constitution. That is the beginning of the bad relations between the federal government and the provincial government of Quebec.

Then, the liberals take the power again in Quebec with Robert Bourassa at the head. During his reign he is ready to accept to sign the constitution if the Quebec is recognised as a distinct society, has veto right on future changes to the constitution and has the power of decision for immigration. Along with Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and the other premiers, the sign the Meech Lake accord granting to every province the previous demands.

Then on April 5 1990, the premier of Newfoundland, Clyde Wells, by the constitutional rights decides to nullify the signature of its predecessor making of the Meech accord nothing more than a paper. That starts a crisis where the Canada is divided. Some cities declare themselves Anglophone cities not recognising French. In some Canadian cities, people burn and spit on the Quebec flag. Seeing that, the Meech accord was nullified, Lucien Bouchard founds the “Bloc Québécois” a federal party which goal is to promote the rights of Quebec and promote separation.

Brian Mulroney, Canada’s premier, tries to save the accord and brings every premier to discuss this. But Elijah Harper, from Manitoba, blocks the deposition of the accord in the House of Commons. That is June 12 1990. The prime minister sets the deadline of June 22 to sign the accord, but Newfoundland and Manitoba refuse to sign and the accord is officially dead.

On June 22, Robert Bourassa, declares in the Quebec house of commons that «English Canada has to understand that whatever is said or happens, Quebec is now and forever a distinct society, free and able to assume its destiny and development.». The opposition leader (Jacques Parizeau of the Parti Quebecois) applauds “his prime minister” and crosses to shake his hand. (That was never seen in Quebec politics, liberals and PQ’s agreeing on something)

June 24th is the national day of Quebec and since the accord is dead, thousands of people (a record) get on the streets to celebrate with flags the national day. Among the people in the celebration, Lucien Bouchard and some federal conservatives which leave their party the next day.

From that day, Quebec creates the Bélanger-Campeau commission (formed of Parti Quebecois members and Liberal members) to determine the future of politics in Québec. One year later, the commission deposes its report. Two options are proposed: a much decentralised federalism or a separation. The separation is considered to be economically viable and they propose a referendum at least before October 16 1992. They adopt a law making possible a referendum on before that day. Quebec is open for federal offers but then Manitoban politicians declare they will not recognise Quebec as a distinct society.

Then the federal government tries to make another accord, the Charlottetown accord which does no contain any of the previous demands. To the general surprise, Robert Bourassa signs the accord. That causes the provincial liberal party to divide. They form a new party called the ADQ (a right wing party).

Now after that, some people begin to think about separation and the federal government threatens some of them. The association of women of Quebec is threatened to see its subventions but if they ever take position in the debate. So months later, all Canadians have to decide if they adopt the accord. On the federal scene, 56,7% of Canadians say no to the accord and on the provincial scene, Quebec people say no to 57%, seeing it hasn’t the five demands Meech had. The English Canadians say for their part that too many concessions are made to Quebec.

Due to the failure of the Charlottetown accord, Robert Bourassa and Brian Mulroney give their demission. On the next federal elections, the Bloc Québécois becomes the official opposition, and on the provincial scene, the Parti Quebecois wins in 1994. He decides to make a referendum in 1995 where the “NO” wins: NO: 50.56% YES: 49.44%. As you can see it was close. The federal liberals led by Jean Chrétien (influenced by Trudeau) try everything to save the unity.


So seeing that the result was close they adopt a way to save Canada. That’s were the sponsorship program scandal begins. Groupaction Inc. is chosen to promote federalism in Quebec. I’ll refer you to this to see what happens next. Please read it.

Now, all that money was spent not only to save Canada but some part was put into the Liberal party! To not break the law, the asked Groupaction employees to give money to the liberal party and in return, the government would pay them back later with money from taxes. That’s where it becomes a big problem.

Now, Martin arrives denying everything and with a minority government that will be overthrown soon by the Bloc and the Conservatives. Again Canada is facing a crisis. On one side, the Quebec people said they have been abused by the federal liberals and on the other side the English Canadians which money was spent on helping the liberals finance themselves. Just so you know even the Italian mob was involved in this!


Now the liberals aren’t so prepared for elections since they don’t have much money to enter in a new election campaign. They spent almost everything on the last one. The press is already speculating on if there is an election soon…according to the inquiries, the conservatives would win…and the Bloc would get almost all Quebec. The Federal Liberals are banned forever in Quebec.

According to Michael Ignatieff, an author who won prizes and is now professor at Harvard, the unity of Canada is in crisis. A new election could favour the nationalists from Quebec and a referendum could be won by the YES dividing Canada.

What’s the future of Canada? You tell me…

[Geosgaeno]

wow, long post, i couldnt be bothered reading it for it is sooooo long......sorry.

[Galthol]

Then you have the current problems with the sponsership scandel (Just a small break here even if Paul Martin did not know about the scandel at the time it was happening what does that say about him he was the GODDAMN FINANCE MINISTER he should have seen aleast something)

Well anyway, I heard tell that the Gomery inquiry is the most watched program in Quebec, is there any truth to that Mithrandir.

[Mithrandir]

Yeah actually, people watch it like it was some sort of soap! hehe
Seriously, it has tv ratings higher than other shows who are popular.

[Geosgaeno]

thanks for the neg rep i didnt warrant that whatsoever, i was mearly saying i couldnt be bothered reading that ridiculously long post when it has nothing to do with me, i dont care bout Canada or America or where ever only my country matters for me. and also by the looks of how many people have posted in this thread many others dont care either but thats just my opinion, for all i know everyone cares except me.....who knows.

sorry for the inconvinience i somehow caused, i will stay away from such threads in the future.

end of.

[BAMAToNE]

Originally Posted by Geosgaeno

thanks for the neg rep i didnt warrant that whatsoever, i was mearly saying i couldnt be bothered reading that ridiculously long post when it has nothing to do with me, i dont care bout Canada or America or where ever only my country matters for me. and also by the looks of how many people have posted in this thread many others dont care either but thats just my opinion, for all i know everyone cares except me.....who knows.

sorry for the inconvinience i somehow caused, i will stay away from such threads in the future.

end of.

I'm glad someone did it, because I would have. If you have nothing to say about this subject, then don't post anything. It's so simple I'd think a child would grasp the notion.

Anyway... wow Mith.. great post. Parts were confusing, but that's just because I'm an American hearing some of it for the first time. Honestly, I keep thinking about how the U.S. federal government clashed with the Southern states prior to the U.S. Civil War. It's not exactly the same situation, but ours became so heated that both sides came to blows. In all honesty, I might think it would be easier for the rest of Canada to "reconquer" Quebec and impose their will. "Look, this is the way it's going to be: You're going to be just another province like everyone else and stop your bitching moaning. You are no better than people from Ontario, or Manitoba, or even Saskatchewan. You're going to follow the same laws the rest of us do. That's the way it is, so learn to live with it."

If this were an American state stepping so boldly out of line with the rest of the nation, I believe the president would federalize the national guard of said state and send them in to remove the state government. (If the situation were so dire as to call for this.) Perhaps the laws that tie the provinces together hang more loosely than in the U.S. The federal government in America was really not that powerful prior to WWII. Thanks to FDR, Big Brother essentially took over the country and made states bend to his will. (I'm not arguing the necessity for it at the time.) From that point on, the power of the United States came from a central point - the federal government.

Anyway... I digress. Hope Canada gets on the right track soon. If Quebec were on a coast I'd say let them go. But you can't really let a chunk of land square in the middle of the country secede, heh. The hole would look ugly on a map. :P

[bjp4444]

You know, I was basically going to write a big long post bascially saying what BAMA did, however, I zoned out this morning, and couldn't concentrate.

One thing I'd like to add is if you actually were to let Quebec go, then your doing two things detrimental to your union.

One, the federal level of gevernment bascially loses most, if not all of its standing.

Two, you set a dangerous precedent where any other province could do the same. It would be one thing if the entire country wanted to disband the entire union, but to let them go, one by one, when they choose to, totally circumvents the federal goverenment, and its entire purpose.

It would seem as if each province [or state] would know what they were getting into when they join said union [unless they were conquered or annexed], so they must live with the consequences.

I could keep going and going with nuances and contingencies and the like, but I'm sorta tired right now. All for all, preserving the union is for the best, IMO.

-bjp

[silverDistortioN]

Originally Posted by bjp4444

One, the federal level of gevernment bascially loses most, if not all of its standing.

Two, you set a dangerous precedent where any other province could do the same. It would be one thing if the entire country wanted to disband the entire union, but to let them go, one by one, when they choose to, totally circumvents the federal goverenment, and its entire purpose.

i think the standing of the federal government was lost when it decided to compromise like it did for the sake of keeping quebec a province in the late 1700's. if i were in that position, i would probably have threatened to counter with an embargo or military action against the US. or both. in the late 1700's, america wasn't quite the superpower it is now... canada might have stood a chance. in the long run, it would be worth the stability of the union and whatever benefits quebec has to offer.

anyway, it's a little too late now. i doubt the canadian government will suddenly decide it illegal for quebec to secede. i mean, they haven't done anything about it so far, and there's not much evidence of them doing anything in the near future... i bet given enough time, quebec's separation is inevitable.

the canadian government *could* preserve the union through legislation, but the potential dangers of repurcussions would probably keep officials from making that kind of decision.

as for the dangerous precedent... i seriously doubt other provinces would want to declare their independence. quebec seems particularly the exception in this case.

[Galthol]

Originally Posted by silverDistortioN
. . . as for the dangerous precedent... i seriously doubt other provinces would want to declare their independence. quebec seems particularly the exception in this case.

Well it might give "King Ralph" ideas, and well if you follow canadain politics, thats not a good thing. This is the man who went in a homeless shelter a couple of years ago on Christmas and drunknly told all the homless people to go get a job you worthless drunks.

Also I think it was during the depression when Alberta became a 'dustbowl' we in the east helped out and sent food out west. Then when out fishermen ask for better EI payments and cheaper oil, (This was recently mind you) Albeta refuses to pay EI and sell oil cheaper in Canada. Thats not all, Someone gets the bright idea to make bumper stickers that said

"Let the eastren bastards freeze in the dark"

Hows that for nationality

[silverDistortioN]

well, at this point, the danger of other provinces seceding is pure speculation. if quebec does separate, the opportunity will be created to produce reactionary legislation to strengthen the unity of the remaining provinces. i think it would be wise to produce that legislation right now, but i highly doubt parliament's willingness in doing so.

other than that, there's nothing you can do about it. so i suppose it's better to offer these kinds of ralphian ideas than it is to offer nothing.

[Ephraim]

I'm just worried about what'll happen to the Maritime provinces if Quebe separates. Where will we go? We'll be separated from the rest of Canada.

[bjp4444]

I've got friends in Vermont. Will that help?

-bjp

[Mithrandir]

Bah, it isn't like when Quebec separates, we all become ennemies

The situation has become quite serious:

1-The conservatives wanted to adopt a motion that would get us into elections but the Liberals postponed the day where the opposition can do so. So now, the conservatives and the other parties are blocking the works of in the house of commons.

2-Paul Martin will do for the first time ever, a speech for the nation. Wonder what he will talk about but this is the first time ever a prime minister does so.

[BAMAToNE]

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

2-Paul Martin will do for the first time ever, a speech for the nation. Wonder what he will talk about but this is the first time ever a prime minister does so.

Wait... this is the first time Paul Martin has addressed the nation? Or it's the first time a Prime Minister has addressed the nation? That would be quite curious...

[Mithrandir]

Well, the thing is: All the partys have 6 minutes after Paul Martin to do the same.

This is not a debate and that's why it's weird. This is the first time I see such a thing.

[Galthol]

See I think the conservites want an early election because they don't want the vote after the Inquiry is finished. I think that later in the year we will learn of a Conservite involvement. Which will invovle Belinda Stronac + Steven Harper having and affiar behind Peter Mackays back.

[TheDragonKnight]

I have to admit im much less aware of this topic than id like to admit however that said, on to my rant.

<rant>
Quebec already has more political pull tha nmost provincies becasue of concessions previously granted them, i really fail to see what they are bitching about. i mean i know some good people from Quebec, but it seems the majority (or at least their politicans) are idiots.

if i ahd my way id say, let em seperate and the second its offical march the damn army in, annex them and lay down the law.

i hear the most bitching about preserving their culture, so? noones stoping them, it is entirely a persons choice to speak french or english, but the basic truth is that ENGLISH is the language of international buisness. hell tehy dont eve nspeak real french anymore its a basterdized version if i recall correctly.

but fine tehy have their own distinct culture, fine they wish to preserve it, nobody or nothign is stopping them, however from where im stiing the french in Quebec are the once operssing the english there i mean anywhere else in the coutnry everything has a french and english lable, but only in Quebec must the french be the prominent one.

Canada is a democratic country and as such teh majority of the peopel decide what happens here (supposedly, but thats a different argument) what some of these peopel need to accept is that the french (or at last the Quebec version of it) speakers in canada are a MINORITY and the policies and laws may not reflect their views all the time, after all the majroity of the country isnt even from Quebec let alone the french speaking population of Quebec.

seperating would be no realistic solution, can Quebecas a lone provice suppourt itself? or do tehy plan on joining the states? and if the latter do they really think bush will put up with their bullshit? id think he'd take less than Canada has.

If Quebec seperated and i was teh canadain political leader at the time, id place a nice BIG fat trade embargo on them and economicaly squeeze until they needed to rejoin canada and would do so under some reasonable terms (IE you get no more say than anyone else) course im a bastard so i dont think thats going to happen, hoever even without that i think thered be some fees to prevent free trade, it would bea most efficent way for canada to show its displeasure at the seperation.

Even without any oter issues the sheer political and paperwrk assoicated with a new country would be insane, first off, could the new country of Quebec suppourt it self? does it have a standing army capable of its own self defence? (bush has proven if you cant stand up for your self nobody will) said new country will need to establish new diplomatic ties, as well as trade agreements, speaking of trade, Quebec is going to need to import ALOT, whats it got to sell? Will Quebec draft its own laws? or keep Canadas? what about currency? new political structer? who leads? under what athourity? what about the english speaking population, or even those french who simply dont care enough to seperate? soemhow i dont think they are as opressed as the propaganda would have us beleive.

is a 50 precent majority enough? seperating a country is a major decesion, i think tehy should need at least a 2/3 majority for that, after all major decesions in our poitical structer require higher precetnages of a vote depending on the severity of the ction, id say seperating is pretty severe.

Will teh federal government agree to let teh coutnry go even if a provicanl vote passes? if not we have a potential for civil war, i dont think it would be any where near as large scale as teh american one was, and i also dont think it would end in favor of Quebec.

im courious as well, if teh states have an ofical positions on this possibility? prehaps plans for how to deal with the new seperate Quebec if it does seperate.

teh fact is i dont think a political or econimic presence as small as Quebec would have could surive in the world, todays world is dominated by big buisness, and little guys get eaten. (dont beleive me ask wallmart how many local town shops tehyve put out of buisness) as part of canada Quebec enjoys free trade with teh rest of canada, as well as all the favoriable arrangments we have with other countries (most noteabley the states. alone they would eb without them.

The world has changed in 1700 seperating might have been a realistic goal, today it is not.

Ive gota question to finish off with, if Quebec seperated, how long do you think it would take the Opressed english speaking population of this new country to hold their own vote and split the new Quebec down the middle? or rejoin canada?

ahh to hell with it its a pipe dream in todays worl i jstu dont think it could work (happen mabey, work no)

</rant>

[BAMAToNE]

Originally Posted by TheDragonKnight

if i ahd my way id say, let em seperate and the second its offical march the damn army in, annex them and lay down the law.

Damn straight!

[Galthol]

I second that motion!

[bjp4444]

Hey, did that PM address happen yet? Was just wondering what he said, along with the responses. [Here in the US, the opposing party usually does have a response after, say, the State of The Union, so I don't find that part weird.]

-bjp