Does the Human Mind even exist?

[oneforthelord]

Does the human mind exist?

Sounds like a silly question, doesn't it? Yet this question is old, and was first asked in ages lost in the mist. So now the question is how come we haven't had a good answer if this question has been asked for so many years now?

Many theories abound about the human mind - it's nature, origin, or whether there even IS a mind. None of them can really explain the mind as of yet, but it looks promising.

To get everyone started, here's a simple question:
Is the mind separate from the brain or is it actually the brain doing funky stuff?

Edit: To make the statement clearer, let me elaborate a little.

Is the mind really separate from the brain? As in does it reside in some unknown recess of our head, controlling everything we do? Or is it really the workings of the brain that produce what we call the mind? Neural processes, synapses, etc do all these combine to make up one's "mind"?

What do you believe about the mind and why?

[silverDistortioN]

well, that depends... what do you mean by "is"?

[Zeugma 440]

*trying to type something intelligent in the middle of a student mayhem*

Does the human mind exist?

Well, IMO the side question is "Is what we call mind proper to humans ?"

I guess that what you imply by mind is the consciousness of the self, the very thing that makes us think, foresee and reason.
Have you any evidence that inferior intelligent life forms like, say, dogs or monkeys do not have at least an embryo of mind ?

Beyond natural instincts, there is something that makes each individual behave differently in front of the same situation. At a low level, we may call that experience (I behave the same way as I did to succeed in a similar situation). At a higher level, personal feelings, opinions (though that very word may be more appropriate for mankind) may intervene.

That is the beginning of one's own way of thinking... even before the consciousness of the self. IMO, the mind starts where the influence of natural instincts fades, where reasoning takes the place of basic behaviourism.

The answer is necessarily related to the development of the brain and the mechanisms of memorization. Researchers still have many unanswered questions on this topic, that's maybe why what we call mind remains scientifically unexplained...

[silverDistortioN]

i just thought i should mention that i had an actual point in saying what i did... perhaps it wasn't as obvious because i chose to put "what do you mean by 'is'?" instead of "what do you mean by 'exist'?"

but it was still mostly teasing... >.>

anyway, here's an interesting concept for you to ponder:
when you think, you only hear your thoughts. you never say them.

[oneforthelord]

Descartes did comment on the fact that we merely think our thoughts and not hear them in his "Second Meditation".

Let me try and make it even clearer this time...

There are many theories about the human mind and whether it exist or not. Descartes maintains that the mind and the brain are two distinct, separate "objects" in the body. According to him, the mind is the centre which directs thought, feelings, reason, etc.

A different view is that of neuroscience (the more radical ones) who claim that the mind is just a figment of our imagination, so to say. Even the concept of "a mind" is outmoded and erroneous, like the notion of the sun revolving around the earth. What we call the mind are just neurons firing in a certain way in the brain, coupled with chemical levels moving up and down. All this activity that takes place at a blinding speed is what constitutes our mental processes and this, in their opinion, is what the mind really is, hence mind = brain and that's it.

My question is: Which do you hold to and why? Or do you have alternate views other than the two(there are more than just these two, such as mind = brain + body + environment, etc)?


In reply to Zeugma, yes animals may have minds. No, we have no proof to show that animals might not have even an embryo of a mind. However, when you say this there is an inconsistency with what you say here:

Originally Posted by Zeugma 440

I guess that what you imply by mind is the consciousness of the self, the very thing that makes us think, foresee and reason

Because this is the way you define the mind, ie as consciousness of self that makes us think, foresee and reason, you sort of necessarily disqualify animals. Animals have so far not shown any capability of reason and foresight, though it can be argued that are capable of limited thinking (however, there are arguments that this is just the memory at work). You CAN argue that just because they have haven't shown any capability doesn't mean they DON'T have even the tiniest bit of the mind. This is equivalent to Descartes' radical doubting in his First Meditation. Then I can ask you: "Just because cats haven't spoken CHinese before doesn't mean that they don't have the embryo of the ability to speak Chinese". This then leads to argumentative paralysis where we begin to quibble over what is reasonable to hold as true and what is not and whatnot.

We can actually have a good debate on this topic, but that would be in another thread.

Originally Posted by Zeugma 440

IMO, the mind starts where the influence of natural instincts fades, where reasoning takes the place of basic behaviourism

I think I can infer that you more or less think that the mind is not all the brain?

[silverDistortioN]

Originally Posted by oneforthelord

I think I can infer that you more or less think that the mind is not all the brain?

i came off with the exact opposite interpretation... >.>
unless you consider our basic instincts the same thing as our brain, that is.

and on descartes: i just want to mention that while it may not be possible to truly prove anything, i find it best not to assume that thinking is the only concrete existence we have.

but i digress... anyway...
i'm of the opinion that the mind is a... "side-effect" of the brain. i suppose you could say the mind is just a perception. however, that's not to say i don't think it exists... that comes off to me like saying TV's don't exist because they're simply a collection of atoms; we only give them the label of "TV" out of convenience.

...if you get me.

[Zeugma 440]

OK, I see where you want to lead the debate now...

First of all, I think we should admit that without a brain, the mind does not exist. Thinking the contrary will probably lead to a mystical debate on the existence of the soul and its immortality.... let's forget it for a while (and stop me there if you do not agree).

Having a scientific education, I tend to analyze facts to draw my own conclusions. Descartes' way of thinking is way more theoretical / philosophical. It does not rely on measures and evidence, but on his own logical reasoning, which is as if he was trying to understand the problem on another dimension.

Originally Posted by Silver

i'm of the opinion that the mind is a... "side-effect" of the brain.

I think you've find the very words to describe it. I also agree on this idea (let's call it the neuroscientific thesis) since I do not see any other explanation on the origin of the mind from the physical point of view. From the logical point of view, the brain doesn't even exist. It is just like the computers behind this BBS : we don't see them, we don't even think about them but they are at the core of the existence of the forums.

To sum this up, I think that both sides (Descartes and the neuroscientists) are right, but they each consider another part of reality.

[Hierlark16]

Ok... I just sorta skimmed what y'all wrote so maybe I'm just repeating what has already been said. I believe that the brain and the mind are separate... but they depend on each other. Like the only reason writing and agriculture developed was because our brains got bigger and bigger and we could begin to associate intangibles with tangibles.

Anyway... I believe that the mind and brain are detached. the brain is sorta like a medium. Emotions, opinions, reactions all run through it, but the mind manifests those things. It is because we can acknowledge that we exist and therefore that we also cannot exist that gives us refined thinking.

[Zedie9]

Originally Posted by Hierlark16

Like the only reason writing and agriculture developed was because our brains got bigger and bigger and we could begin to associate intangibles with tangibles.

There are those who hypothesize that agriculture developed primarily in order to grow grains to be used in production of alcoholic beverages.

I, too, believe that the mind is a 'side effect' of the brain - but a side effect that, in my opinion, should reasonably be expected given the complexity, nature, and frequent function of said physical brains.

[EDIT: misspelled word]

[Mithrandir]

Well , what happens when you are in a coma? I don't remember hearing someone talking about being awake but at the same time not awake. I believe the brain IS the mind. There is some sort of cerebral activity that creates the thinking.

It could be explained as Silver said previously , "mind" is only a perception.

[silverDistortioN]

well, i'm glad people are finally agreeing with me for once, at least. =)
unless... oh my god! could this mean i'm wrong?!? =o

[TheDragonKnight]

umm id ahve to check on some obscure refernce from waay back whe ni payed attention in school, but is this not bascily the same as asking whats the difference between ego and id?

not amny works of science or theology i oculd quote (infact noone to my knolwedge) however this sems to be largly opinin based anyway so here goes nothing.

first off im not sure mind is the right word for what your getting at, im not sure the english language contains a word for waht we are talking about but if im getting this right (which im not sure i am) the 'mind' is the clumanitaion of all our experiences (including racial) and thought processes.

i woundt say it contorls your actions as concious thought factos in here i would go so far as to say its what presents you with your options in any given suitation, not liek amultiple choice quiz or anything but more like simply the ordering of your thoughts, and knowledge will give you differnt options. for example a different people will think up vastly differnt solutions or responces to any given problem.

arrgh, im going nuts atempting to be clear about waht im talkingabout, teh engish language is liely one of the mist unsutied for discussions of this kinds, it is a very ungainly language, but alas it is my only language, so im going to have to stop here.

[Locke Cole]

Originally Posted by TheDragonKnight

umm id ahve to check on some obscure refernce from waay back whe ni payed attention in school, but is this not bascily the same as asking whats the difference between ego and id?

not amny works of science or theology i oculd quote (infact noone to my knolwedge) however this sems to be largly opinin based anyway so here goes nothing.

first off im not sure mind is the right word for what your getting at, im not sure the english language contains a word for waht we are talking about but if im getting this right (which im not sure i am) the 'mind' is the clumanitaion of all our experiences (including racial) and thought processes.

i woundt say it contorls your actions as concious thought factos in here i would go so far as to say its what presents you with your options in any given suitation, not liek amultiple choice quiz or anything but more like simply the ordering of your thoughts, and knowledge will give you differnt options. for example a different people will think up vastly differnt solutions or responces to any given problem.

arrgh, im going nuts atempting to be clear about waht im talkingabout, teh engish language is liely one of the mist unsutied for discussions of this kinds, it is a very ungainly language, but alas it is my only language, so im going to have to stop here.

Wow, I'm sure I missed a few but damn, talk about bad. I mean, the lack of capitals, punctuation, I can live with, but atleast re-read what you're planning to post. I could barely read some of that at first. All I ask is for a little effort while posting, not too much. Heck, paste your post into word and it'll even correct it for you! Please, for the courtesy of all, atleast proof read your posts if you know your writing is this bad. Sorry to go off topic folks. *vanishes*

[silverDistortioN]

the irony is that TDK is criticizing the english language when in fact it should be the english language criticizing TDK.

[Giea]

*Throws a dictionary at TDK* ^_^!

Hehe, on topic! Well I heard from one of my relatives that we have two brains! One is the "human" brain, and the other one is the animal brain. I don't know the full story, that or my relative was on drugs \/\/ () \/\/!

[Astrolounge]

Hehe, on topic! Well I heard from one of my relatives that we have two brains! One is the "human" brain, and the other one is the animal brain.

I think what they might have ment, was the "Higher Brain" and "Lizard Brain."
The higher mind controls logic and reasoning, and the lizard brain runs instict, "Fight Or Flight" generally, like when you get into a life or death situation kind of thing, and adrenaline takes over.
What I think is weird is useing your mind, or brain, or whathave you, to try and solve the mystery of ITSELF! That's really creepy to me.

PS: I heard the average person can only use about a 10th of their brain.
Spooky no?

[Giea]

That's it! The higher brain and the animal brain! I want to know, where is the Animal brain? =(

[oneforthelord]

Originally Posted by TheDragonKnight

umm id ahve to check on some obscure refernce from waay back whe ni payed attention in school, but is this not bascily the same as asking whats the difference between ego and id?

not amny works of science or theology i oculd quote (infact noone to my knolwedge) however this sems to be largly opinin based anyway so here goes nothing.

first off im not sure mind is the right word for what your getting at, im not sure the english language contains a word for waht we are talking about but if im getting this right (which im not sure i am) the 'mind' is the clumanitaion of all our experiences (including racial) and thought processes.

i woundt say it contorls your actions as concious thought factos in here i would go so far as to say its what presents you with your options in any given suitation, not liek amultiple choice quiz or anything but more like simply the ordering of your thoughts, and knowledge will give you differnt options. for example a different people will think up vastly differnt solutions or responces to any given problem.

arrgh, im going nuts atempting to be clear about waht im talkingabout, teh engish language is liely one of the mist unsutied for discussions of this kinds, it is a very ungainly language, but alas it is my only language, so im going to have to stop here.

Back after an absence. Likely to disappear again as finals are in a week.

No, mind is the topic that I'm discussing here, and it is the right word. What would you have me use? The thing that seems to be what makes us think and controls our thoughts and actions and seems to be somewhere in our heads but we haven't really discovered what it is and maybe we won't be able to discover what it is although there are many theories about it that are mutually exclusive or complemantary? Seriously, mind is the subject I'm getting at.

Back to what you are saying, when you say that the mind is the culmination of all of our experiences and thought processes, what do you really mean? It makes sense at a first glance, but upon deeper analysis what gives rise to the thought processes and experiences in the first place?

Maybe you mean that experiences and thought processes, once we have them, work hand in hand to bring into being what we call the mind. Yet my question would be: what is it that has these thought processes? The brain maybe, but that's not really the whole story per se. The brain thinks...or does it? Isn't what it's doing merely firing neurons and changing chemicals here and there? Is that really all thinking is about?

But there is something in experience. It would explain why everyone's mind is different, because no one can have the exact same experience as another person. Why is this so? Simply because no two people can be at the same place in space at the same time going through the same experience in the same way. In other words, think Tele-frag. So maybe the mind is partly a result of our experiences.

Moving along, I don't really get what you mean when you say that conscious thought factors in here. Factors in where? I'm guessing what you mean to say is that the mind does not control our actions as conscious thought is merely what presents us with the different choices of action to take, based on experience and knowledge. Then what is that which makes us take the decision once we have been presented with these choice?

With regards to the animal brain and the higher brain...the animal brain is the medulla oblongata.

Anyway, to complexify the issue here...let's turn back to experiences and the mind. Specifically, social experiences and the mind. Could it be that the mind is partly due to the world around us? In other words, is the mind not merely the brain, but the brain plus the environment? What thinkest thou?

[Astrolounge]

It’s not really two separate brains, their different parts of the same whole.

The “Lizard Brain” also called the “Animal Brain” (though oneforthelord is correct on it's medical term) is in the center, (It’s a part of your subconscious) ready to take quick control at any moment. I believe the adrenaline glands are around it too.

The “Higher Brain” is layered around the “Lizard Brain” and is how your mind operates most of the time, this is where knowledge you can readily access is stored. (Like mathematics) Thus this would be the source of your conscious thought.

The outer layer is the cerebral cortex, I’m not entirely sure but I think this is where new information goes before it can be “filed away,” so to speak.

By the way TheDragonKnight, I believe the word for what you’re delving into is “Soul.”

PS: I have studied some other languages besides English, and trust me when I say they aren't nearly as different as you would think. Mostly it's just different words for the same thing's and a modified sentence structure.

[silverDistortioN]

there are some concepts that can't really be expressed in words... things that you just have to wrap your mind around.

...but don't confuse that with not being able to find the words to say what you want to say.