More religious discussions that will end badly

[Charon]

Marilyn Manson. Interesting character. I hate his image, I like some of his music though. Tainted Love was a great cover IMO and I really like Fight Song and (S)aint, which has some of my favourite lyrics ever, clever guy. On the flip side, as Brian rather than Marylin I agree he is an intelligent person, intelligent enough to ensure his alter-ego as the Anti-Christ superstar causes just enough controversy to keep his records selling. I don't beleive he is responsible for any indirect deaths Seymour. I have listened to a great deal of his music and I've never killed anyone. And as for the lack of respect for Christianity, good. Just why exactly should he have respect for such a goddawful religion.

Before I go any further, here is a brief apology to any RPGN Christian members, some of you ARE sane I am aware of that, but as a vast majority... Well. It's a rant I've made a million times and I have little interest in posting it again. But let's jsut say I'm with MM on this one. I too have zero respect for Christianity, mainly due to the fact it's pushed in people's faces so much as being correct when it is anything but. I'd rather put my faith in a divine creator being made of chocolate sausages than the Christian representation of God and Jesus.

[SeymourGuado]

Atleast we differ on something:) in the end we will all find out the absolute truth, I hope for mansons sake there is no god, or he is doomed:)

It is not much his lack of respect for the religion that annoys me, its the fact he urinates on symbols of someone who died on a cross in agony and led a noble life. That is something I cannot accept and it's just plain nasty. It is of course an historical fact that Jesus died on a cross;)

It wouldn't matter to me if I were atheist I would still think it an awful thing to do, no matter who it is to. If I insulted and pissed on a picture of stephen hawkings or some other cripple or someone who died an agonising victim death, people would just say "what a sick evil bastard"

In the end you are right about 1 of the reasons he does it, it is just a sad reflection of the world that because of it he is made more famous and sells more ;)

[Charon]

It is of course an historical fact that Jesus died on a cross;)
Is it indeed... I'm a big fan of a comedy show known as Red Dwarf. One of the character's once remarked;
"History Lister, is written by the winners."

Those events took place 2000 years ago. None of us really know for sure.
Everyone is always quick to remark that Jesus was crucified. Well, so were thousands others. You really think Manson would piss on a crucifix because he doesn't respect Jesus? Or because it will cause enough of an uproar to get him plenty of publicity for his ANTIChrist superstar persona? Marketing, my dear Seymour. He could have chosen any major religion really, but with Christianity being the biggest, what better way to endure mass publicity. The guy has made his fortune, he can't be that stupid. I'd imagine he knew full well what he was doing. Crucifixes (in the modern day sense) are ten a penny. They are cheap, mass produced crap. And yet people put so much faith in them. Christianity is full of contradictions. The Christian God is omnipresent, and yet it's worshippers gather en masse every Sunday to pray together. Why? Thou shalt not kill, says the Bible, yet protestants and catholics still kill each other today. Christianity as a religion is a shambles, if Jesus really is "up there" in heaven, I'd imagine Manson peeing on a tacky representation of himself is the least of his worries. Christianity preaches forgiveness, I beleive Jesus was supposed to have forgiven his killers even as they hoisted him up. Where was that forgiveness for Lucifer, if man is worthy of God's forgiveness then why not the most beautiful angel in heaven? Why not Adam? Why not Eve? It seems the Christian God is also a vengeful one. Thou shalt not kill God said to Moses, not long afterward allowing Moses to part the sea which then promptly closed behind him killing thousands. Black and White, Yin and Yang. Opposites and contradictions, a long running theory in many religions. God and the Devil. Funny how Christianity fits so many patterns of the religions that came before it, and more that followed no doubt.

So who's to say, who's really to say what happened all those years ago? No one my friend, no one. There is no such thing as historical fact. All we have are records we can only presume to be true. Like religion itself, history too requires that one put some faith, not in fact, but in what one beleives to be correct.

Was Jesus crucified, I say probably. Was he worshipped as a prophet, most likely. Was he the son of God, I doubt it. Did he die for our sins? No. What is a sin? As we've seen, both God and man committed what Christianity calls sins. If God is omnipotent and can intervene as the Bible claims he did on occasion, why so long since the last time? Why did he not see Lucifer turning against him? Why did he not save his son? Why would he let the snake corrupt Adam and Eve? Why would he let Esau kill Abraham? (Did I get that right? Been a long time since I read the Bible, sorry.)

Thou shalt worship no other God but me, or somesuch, so why not once and for all prove himself as the one true God? He seemed to have no problem proving his existence to people throughout the Bible. Why no modern day burning bush? Why no modern day miracles?

But I digress, I could sit here and pick holes out of Christianity all night, but I've probably already offended some of my friends and for that, I'll apologize, ask for your forgiveness, and bid you goodnight. :)

[SeymourGuado]

The point is not whether christianity is true, it is whether manson is sick..and he is and needs help in my opinion.

It isnt pissing on images of a major religious symbol as said that bothers me, it si the simple fact he is sick enough to do it to someone who died ina painful way. Anyone who can make fun or severely disrespect in that way is no good.

If i had to go one way or the other as far as a god , I would have to say there is one. I cannot believe that everything we see around us is a mistake and that intelligence can seemingly come from dead matter.

Nor can any logical person. It is self evident that as humans our knowledge is severely limited. The idea that everything that exists and all of the knowledge came from 1 large explosion in space that seemingly came from nowhere is not an answer and any scientist that thinks it is needs to go back to the drawing board.

Even Einstein believed ina god as do many scientists and brain surgeons, many of whom make the same point that something exists there that cannot come from a previously "dead" universe:)

I am not offended by your criticism of christianity Charon I know you are level headed enough to put forward a decent alternate viewpoint. I am hardlya church goer myself but I must emphasise again that no plausible explanation to knowledge existing and evolving exists.

A single cell life form may evolve physically given millions of years but intelligence, knowledge and awareness are not and cannot be reconciled with an explosion in space from dead matter :)

It is also a widely known acceptance that the old testament creation story is a parabel and not a literal explanation. It does however go through the stages of creation in the universe relatively well.

Jesus was not forgiving, he whipped the money lenders in the church. He got angry and punished those who made a mockery of his father. Atleasthe did if you believe that that part of the new testament is right.

I am also a big Red Dwarf fan. And a weird coincidence (which sometimes I don't believe are coincidences) is that I am actually watching Series 8 via winamp right now;)

Over to you.

[Charon]

Forum etiquette dictates I shouldn't really reply so soon, but I will add, before I slope off for the night, that just for clarification, I too beleive in a God, and a Goddess, I don't beleive in creationism, I do put some faith in Darwinian Evolution. There is nothing wrong with having faith, but I don't presume to know everything about my deities and neither do I feel myself responsible or answerable to them. My time on Earth here is mine, for my actions, for my free will to play the part I have chosen in Man's sorry saga. If Manson had peed on a holy symbol of sentimental value to myself. Well, believe me or not, I wouldn't really care too much. If I come across as egotistical here then I'm sorry but, my faith really is stronger than that.

And with that I really will leave off for the night, afore Kilu releases the hounds. >_<

*hugs everyone*

Sweet dreams.

[SeymourGuado]

I don't know whether the religions are accurate or not but I do believe that there is more to life than what we know and that there is a creator:) On the whole I agree with that post

Sweet dreams:) your not drunk are you btw? Just that its nice to be hugged:) *hugs all*

[Cyrano de Hero]

http://www.rpgamers.info/images/smilies/hijacksign.gif

At least for the time being, anyway...!

Christianity, like nearly all religions, is open to much interpretation. Try reading a passage Bible with footnotes, and then read that exact same passage's footnotes from another Bible. Notice the differences in the interpretation, both subtle and great. Do the same with the Islamic Qu'ran (I'm not too sure how it's spelled) and the Jewish Bible. You'll begin to see just how many ways religious scriptures can be viewed.


Crucifixes (in the modern day sense) are ten a penny. They are cheap, mass produced crap. And yet people put so much faith in them.
Crucifixes are about what they represent and their worth lies in what they are symbolic of, not their intrinsic monetary value or availabilty. National flags are mass produced, yet there are those who get offended at the burning of their nation's flag. (I've always wondered if flag burning/defacing is as common in other countries as in the U.S.?)

It's nothing new to see people defacing symbols of great meaning and pride to others. There was some artist a few years back who sold pictures of a crucifix submerged in a clear plactic bucket of his own urine.(I'll confess I laughed a little a this. Just the thought of him saving up his piss for days on end...) A guy got arrested for attacking someone who was washing his car with the American Flag a few miles away from my town last year. As long as there are crucifixes, there will be people to piss on them.

To me, it seems that urinating on a crucifix is a pretty "black and white, yin and yang" thing to do itself. The crucifix is one of the most, if not the most, widely recognized symbols of Christianity. It's blatant disrespect, meant to disgust as many people as possible. (and arouse support from a few of Manson's fans) Doesn't it seem like Manson himself is extrapolating here, thinking that belief in Christ is nothing more than something to piss upon?

This is why I don't get offended by these sorts of things all that much. It just seems rather ignorant to me. That and it also seems like a publicity stunt as well...

(BTW, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking onyou, Charon. Just stating why I'm not taking the whole "Jesus as a urinal" thing too seriously...)

[SeymourGuado]

I don't think that necessarily this discussion will end badly. Infact I don't relly have anything to add. I just find it annoying that christinaity is made a mockery of more than any other religion by people like manson simply because its the easiest target.

I am not arguing for and against a religion I belive all religions should be open to attack and question but not total disrespect simply to become infamous in order to sell sales and especially not to a guy that is more or less proven to have died on a cross in agony.

Religious tolerance is a bad thing on the whole because it stops debate, stops questioning and breeds terrorists, today it is the islamic society that takes the koran more seriously than human life, in the past christian factions were also killers.

Those cartoons were not disrespectful. They were asking valid questions about the faith of islam. The resulting chaos proved the cartoons main point entirely about the intolerance many in the failth have for anything other than their religion. Pissing on pictures of muhammad however would have just been sick and disrespectful and not asked any valid questions.

So all for a religious debate as long as it is asking questions and making debate, not just saying "I hate your religion" or "hey j**us is a dick head" kind of thing. :)

Also, fear that a debate will end in insults is no reason to stop them. If everyone feared backlashes and bad debate we would just be vegetables.

[Charon]

Nice thread title. Lol.

So many comments. Where to begin. To the beginning Batman!

Holy...religious...conversation Batman....

Meh

No I was not drunk. I haven't touched alcohol since 2005. Go me. :)

"Crucifixes are about what they represent and their worth lies in what they are symbolic of, not their intrinsic monetary value or availabilty. National flags are mass produced, yet there are those who get offended at the burning of their nation's flag. (I've always wondered if flag burning/defacing is as common in other countries as in the U.S.?) "

Touché. Flag burning is something I've only really heard of in the U.S or in times of war. I don't recall ever seeing a burning English or indeed British flag though it has probably been done by muslim extremists. I can't say it bothers me much, whilst the sight of our familiar red and white flag flying high is nice, I can't say the flag is such a massive icon that it would upset me to see one defaced. It is after all, just coloured cloth. It represents England, it is not England in itself.

"It's nothing new to see people defacing symbols of great meaning and pride to others. There was some artist a few years back who sold pictures of a crucifix submerged in a clear plactic bucket of his own urine.(I'll confess I laughed a little a this. Just the thought of him saving up his piss for days on end...) A guy got arrested for attacking someone who was washing his car with the American Flag a few miles away from my town last year. As long as there are crucifixes, there will be people to piss on them."

Agreed. Such acts have lost their shock value in my eyes. Some are even valid artistic statements in their own way. You have of course, correctly identified that Manson's fans are not as a majority Christian and therefore the whole thing is in effect, nothing more than a publicity stunt.

"BTW, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking onyou, Charon."

Pffft Cyrano my well endowed (nose-wise) friend. Like I would even consider the notion. Heros don't pick on each other, they fight, back to back until the last man falls. :)

Seymour: "I don't think that necessarily this discussion will end badly."

Oh I dunno, there's still time. When religion is involved discussions often start off quite deep and interesting, then get dragged off course. Here's hoping this one doesn't.

"I am not arguing for and against a religion I belive all religions should be open to attack and question but not total disrespect simply to become infamous in order to sell sales and especially not to a guy that is more or less proven to have died on a cross in agony."

Agreed, all religions should be prepared to defend themselves in the face of criticism. As for the disrespect for infamy, who cares really. Did Manson's cross pissing really have any effect on Christianity? No. It gave Christians, and other well meaning people something to rant about a bit, but at the end of the day I think Christ will remain more popular than Manson. And hey, rather him peeing on a cross to shift a few records than the KKK burning them and sacrificing black people. :P

As for the cartoons thing, assuming you are referring to the Islam thing that people seemed to get so het up about. It was a cartoon...nothing more. It's not like that hasn't been happening for years. I found it amusing, and nothing more.

And finally.
Seymour: "hey j**us is a dick head"

LOL, you censored the word Jesus and not the word dick? Are you drunk?
(rofl)
Anywho, I've run out of steam. Your move.

EDIT: I will also add, just to address an earlier point. Manson pissed on a crucifix because of it's religious connotations. He is the Anti-Christ, therefore he peed on...Christ. I think the fact that Christ died on the cross was never really part of his reasoning. In all honesty, the only way to truly settle that particular side discussion would be to get Manson in here and put forwards the point about Christ's suffering and see whether he has any remorse when faced with that hind-sight. :P

[SeymourGuado]

I censored Jesus' name because the sentance involved calling him a name :) It was an example obviously but the way it was read was soemthing I had to censor;) I don't censor swear words anyway, afterall they are just words, and its what they mean not how they are spelt/censored that matters;)

[kai]

What makes human life more important than say a hampsters? Life is life isn't it. To say we are better than a hampster . . . . . well that's just crazy:smash: .

Edit : I mean that as a serious question. True, I could have worded the question in a more formal manner but, why bother.

[Charon]

O_o

O.k.

[SeymourGuado]

I have to say humans think they are the be all and end all. Testing annoys me enough but the way some of them use animals like they are nothing more than machines to be pulled to pieces then thrown away is something that is morally unacceptable.

I often wonder if some of them know what they are dealing with can feel pain and is living. A little more respect for nature and life is needed I feel

[Charon]

To pop back briefly to our stint on flag abuse. I'm watching Kiss of the Dragon starring Jet Li. He just beat up some Frenchmen with a French flag.

Discuss.

[SeymourGuado]

cannot discuss Jet li, its a sore topic for me. I hate the guy ;) bad choreography, bad motion and trying to be bruce using dragon in the title. The scenes I have seen are mostly trick photography etc. The guy isn't Bruce and I would not have a problem with that if he didnt try to pretend he was ;) *rant over*

as for flags, it depends who burns them:)

If its an immigrant here or asylum seeker burning them whilst having a whale of a time at the taxpayers expense, I don't tolerate that....but if it is someone makinga genuine protest (can't think of any examples), then I am not too bothered.

[Charon]

I'm quite surprised the frenchmen even put up a fight. :P

[Pezito]

Hey ! Leave the Frenchmen alone and go play golf, you British you. :p

It's been almost a month but, heh, I haven't been in this part of the forum for at least a month... So I missed this thread and I regret it. :) Marylin Manson is, indeed, a very clever person from what I've seen ; I once heard him talk on TV (I think it was in Bowling For Columbine) and was surprised by his thoughts and rather educated point of view... It seems that he was doing well at studying before he became famous, too. Anyway, it doesn't shock me that he peed on a crucifix, if that's what happened - haha, look how serious I am, responding on something I haven't heard of nor checked to be true, but taking it as true... :roll: (Ok let's trust you guys this time, I'm too lazy. :D ) First I'm not a believer (not in this anyway), second I take it from a "wise" point of view. However I disagree with him doing such a thing ; because HE may be an intelligent person and I may be too, but there are millions out there who will not think on the same level and will not take it as "intellectually" as we will.

So indeed, while I can live with such acts of pseudo-rebellion, I don't think they should be left unpunished for the sake of freedom of thought. :wonder: To put a bomb on a religious icon is fair criticism ; to urinate on a religious icon is plain insulting.

I noticed something interesting in your posts (mainly Seymour's), about "life, the universe and everything". I for one think it's just our mind that is too small, and limited, to grasp the complexity of something such as the universe... Thus we needed, at least some of us did, something of an intermediary between our limited existence and the unlimited questions out there ; something "universal" yet understandable by us ; something like God(s), or a human face on the frightening questions we cannot answer.

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We had once a really good discussion about it with my girlfriend (yes, some people can sleep in the same bed and be discussing such things until 03:00am, go figure :p ), which kind of cornered me in some thoughts I hadn't expected... As I said, I don't believe in any kind of god above us, I don't believe in fate ; all I see is chaos, which is neither good nor bad, and nice things such as life or chocolate emerging from it. But the way she put the question was different, this time. She compared us humans to, say, insects or microscopic organisms : such life forms aren't aware of our presence, they live their life among us but even though they can walk our skin or sometimes ( :knockedout: ) eat us, they're not aware of us - what we are, what we do, and so on. I guess we just look as "part of the universe" to them... And whether they can feel us or not at a given time, we're still here "somewhere" existing !

I agreed on all that... So she asked me simply : how different are you when you strictly deny the existence of one, or several, superior beings ? :spin:

This somehow made me think of my own relative "stupidity" and meaningless existence, in regard to the universe. Please note, I'm not saying it like "I'm nothing, God is everything" point of view (never :D ), but I'm pointing out the fact it's damn conceited (wow learned a new english word ^^) to state, basically, "only what I can understand does exist". It's intellectually improper ! XD

So, it made me change my mind a bit. However my answer surprised her a bit, too... Considering I still believe in the dramatic difference between insects and humans, in terms of natural limitations and achievements in order to improve their perception of the universe (insects : zero, humans : lots of solid stuff :) )... I admit there could be something out there, big enough and "unhuman" enough that we wouldn't be able to recognize nor understand it ; but this would have to be sooooo different from the world as we know it, that to me it doesn't make any sense anyway ! (Just like a mobile phone doesn't make any sense to an amoeba.) It takes the subject so far, it has to become so "cosmic" that to me, it's not worth thinking.

In a way, by recognizing my own limits as a human being, she made me realize not only that I mean nothing to a god, but that a god means nothing to me ! :spin: He or They could well exist, hey, I don't care ; because if they do, they live in such different spheres that we won't ever understand each other anyway. We're well aware of amoebas, while they don't seem to be aware of us ; we can study them, grow them, kill them, but does anything we could do to them have anything to do with their very... existence ? :wonder: I mean, there's a solid wall there. We live in the same universe but not in the same world.

My conclusion to all of this, in fact, is simple : if you scale the Universe enough that humans take the place of amoebas, and gods take the place of humans - do you think the conclusion would be any different ? I think not. :) We would live in the same universe, but not in the same world ; we would be too different to even communicate, to even mean something for each other... So now my point of view is slightly different : before, I would've said "I don't believe in gods, because they just don't exist" ; now, I would say "I choose not to believe in gods, because it wouldn't make a difference anyway". I don't see the point in believing in something that isn't aware of your belief ! This would go too far and because I'm just human, I claim my relative "stupidity" and place my faith in human stuff. :)

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As you can see, to me, religion and belief are two different things when you come to discuss them. ^^ The question of the existence of god(s) is very different, the way I answer it, from the questions raised by religion(s) (like morals etc). The first is a cosmologic matter, while the second is a human matter. :)