The Future of Canada

[Mithrandir]

If you don't yet about the crisis that is happening to the Canadian government, I suggest you read this post, it might help you. If you're just too lazy then just don’t read. I tried to make it short but this as short as I could get it.


As if you didn't know yet, the province of Quebec (being the only French speaking province of Canada tried to separate from Canada two times now. (Once in 1984 and another time in 1995) There's the "Parti Québécois" who has the objective of making of Quebec a country.

Why the separation? Well, historically, Quebec was founded and named by French colonists but then lose a battle to the English on September 13th 1759, a major battle in Quebec City (where I live :p). General Wolfe and General Montcalm were killed in that battle.


But then, began the British era of the Province of Quebec and now, the majority of the people spoke French and the English wanted to impose the English language and protestant religion, and made them swear to the British crown, which was the worst thing for a French person. (If you don't know, when the queen came to Quebec December 27th 1963 and some separatists throwed tomatoes to the queen)


But anyway, all those changes did not please the people (and since the French were Catholics and speaking French). So that part was not liked by the majority of the people. Now, came the war in the US. Many Americans tried to convince people of the province of Quebec to join them (yes, Quebec could have been an American state). To dissuade the French people to join the Americans, the British let the Quebec people keep their language and religion, and also the French civil code. The criminal code was to become the English one. They even annexed a part of the Ohio valley to the province. As we know, the war was won by the Americans and the loyalist (to the British crown) people of the USA came to the Province of Quebec but did not like the conditions and laws made for the French. In order to solve the problem, in 1791, The Province was separated in two, the High Canada (Ontario) and the Lower Canada (Quebec). The Lower Canada province being mostly French, keeping its laws and the High Canada being mostly English having the English civil code and criminal code.


Then it stayed that way and the British introduced the parliamentary and elections were now common. There was a movement called “The patriots” in Quebec, which totally thought the French Canadians did not have as much rights as the English. So they started rebelling, burning the parliament which at the time was in Montreal. Then, they were mostly arrested by the British and the founder of the government exiled himself to the US preparing plans.


At that time the governors were still named by the crown (as they are still now). In 1840, they reunited the two provinces to form Canada. Politicians began to think about how Canada could become independent, having its own government and the way the constitution could be done. That was the work of French and English Canadians. One thing led to another and on July 1rst 1867, Canada was now independent from the British, it became a dominion. The Queen Victoria signed the British North American Act. There were now two levels of government: provincial and federal. They split the different responsibilities. Other provinces will join later in history to become what we are today.

Then later became the stature of Westminster, where the British crown said no British law could extent to the dominions or colonies. But they still kept allegiance to the crown.

Then in 1960, provincial liberals take control of the government in Quebec. After many years ruled by the dictatorial “Union Party”, it became an era of change for Quebec, freed from many thing (among those, big British and American companies) so they nationalised many services (like Hydroelectricity). With all those changed emerged the “RIN” which is “Group for the national independence”. They wanted again Quebec to separate…and all that idealism gave birth to a party: The “Parti Québécois”, founded by an ex-liberal minister: René Lévesque. The RIN was responsible for the


At the same time, on the federal scene arrived Pierre-Elliot Trudeau at the head of the federal liberal party. He was elected in 1968, reflecting vigour and bringing some changes to modernise Canada. He wanted to unify Canada so he adopts a law making French and English the two official languages of Canada. (Which divides Anglophones and doesn’t fully pleases the francophones). Trudeau had a big impact on Canada and IMO, it’s one of the best prime ministers we ever had. As you may know, he was someone not caring about the diplomatic things…he actually went to visit Fidel Castro causing the FBI to open a folder on him. If you want to know more on him here’s a link: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-74-73/people/trudeaumania/ (http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-74-73/people/trudeaumania/) He hated British monarchy and mocked it by doing a pirouette behind the Queen. He also visited John Lennon and Yoko Ono during their bed-in in Montreal. Anyway, he was special.

And now back to our topic, The Parti Québecois isn’t much popular at the time, the liberals being more popular. Seeing how the vote is controlled by rich Anglophones from Montreal (or so they say), the “RIN” gives birth to the “FLQ” “Quebec Liberation Front”, a more radical movement putting bombs and kidnapping people. They will create a crisis in 1970 by kidnapping the British commissioner James Cross. Five days later, Pierre Laporte, Quebec's labour minister, was also kidnapped on October 10th and was killed by members of the FLQ. That was what we call “The October crisis”. Trudeau for the first time ever in the Canadian history invocates the War Measures Act which is like a martial law. So the army takes control of Quebec and has the right to arrest anyone who is suspicious without reason. The crisis is solved and we don’t hear about it no more. In 1973, the RCMP stoles a list of the Parti Quebecois in Ham Operation, which was requested by Trudeau. That brings up questions among the population about the motives of that.


Then in 1976, the Parti Québécois wins the provincial election. He quickly adopts laws to protect French in Quebec. Among theses, you can’t go to an English school if neither of your parents went to English school. He also adopts a law recognising the rights of the English minority in Quebec. He also adopts a chart to protect the French language which is today highly debated. One of the things the law changed is that in Quebec, you have the right to be served in French and English. French has to predominate over English though. Whoever doesn’t respect it has to pay. In 1980 he will do a referendum on which the Quebec population has to decide if they want to separate from Canada or not. The “No” wins by a majority with the help of Trudeau’s campaign.

Then 1982, Trudeau repatriates the Canadian constitution to Ottawa, now cutting the last chain with England. He also adopts the chart of rights and freedoms, which is the highest law in the constitution. But while the premiers of each province discuss about the new Canadian constitution, Trudeau grows tired of Rene Levesque disagreements. He decided during a night of discussion to convocate secretly every premier except Rene Levesque and makes them sign the constitution. That was seen as an act of treason and we call that night “The Long Knife Night”…making allusion to the Friday the 13th movies. That upsets the Quebec population. On April 1982, The Queen signs the new constitution along with nine provinces. To this day, no Quebec premier has yet signed the constitution. That is the beginning of the bad relations between the federal government and the provincial government of Quebec.

Then, the liberals take the power again in Quebec with Robert Bourassa at the head. During his reign he is ready to accept to sign the constitution if the Quebec is recognised as a distinct society, has veto right on future changes to the constitution and has the power of decision for immigration. Along with Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and the other premiers, the sign the Meech Lake accord granting to every province the previous demands.

Then on April 5 1990, the premier of Newfoundland, Clyde Wells, by the constitutional rights decides to nullify the signature of its predecessor making of the Meech accord nothing more than a paper. That starts a crisis where the Canada is divided. Some cities declare themselves Anglophone cities not recognising French. In some Canadian cities, people burn and spit on the Quebec flag. Seeing that, the Meech accord was nullified, Lucien Bouchard founds the “Bloc Québécois” a federal party which goal is to promote the rights of Quebec and promote separation.

Brian Mulroney, Canada’s premier, tries to save the accord and brings every premier to discuss this. But Elijah Harper, from Manitoba, blocks the deposition of the accord in the House of Commons. That is June 12 1990. The prime minister sets the deadline of June 22 to sign the accord, but Newfoundland and Manitoba refuse to sign and the accord is officially dead.

On June 22, Robert Bourassa, declares in the Quebec house of commons that «English Canada has to understand that whatever is said or happens, Quebec is now and forever a distinct society, free and able to assume its destiny and development.». The opposition leader (Jacques Parizeau of the Parti Quebecois) applauds “his prime minister” and crosses to shake his hand. (That was never seen in Quebec politics, liberals and PQ’s agreeing on something)

June 24th is the national day of Quebec and since the accord is dead, thousands of people (a record) get on the streets to celebrate with flags the national day. Among the people in the celebration, Lucien Bouchard and some federal conservatives which leave their party the next day.

From that day, Quebec creates the Bélanger-Campeau commission (formed of Parti Quebecois members and Liberal members) to determine the future of politics in Québec. One year later, the commission deposes its report. Two options are proposed: a much decentralised federalism or a separation. The separation is considered to be economically viable and they propose a referendum at least before October 16 1992. They adopt a law making possible a referendum on before that day. Quebec is open for federal offers but then Manitoban politicians declare they will not recognise Quebec as a distinct society.

Then the federal government tries to make another accord, the Charlottetown accord which does no contain any of the previous demands. To the general surprise, Robert Bourassa signs the accord. That causes the provincial liberal party to divide. They form a new party called the ADQ (a right wing party).

Now after that, some people begin to think about separation and the federal government threatens some of them. The association of women of Quebec is threatened to see its subventions but if they ever take position in the debate. So months later, all Canadians have to decide if they adopt the accord. On the federal scene, 56,7% of Canadians say no to the accord and on the provincial scene, Quebec people say no to 57%, seeing it hasn’t the five demands Meech had. The English Canadians say for their part that too many concessions are made to Quebec.

Due to the failure of the Charlottetown accord, Robert Bourassa and Brian Mulroney give their demission. On the next federal elections, the Bloc Québécois becomes the official opposition, and on the provincial scene, the Parti Quebecois wins in 1994. He decides to make a referendum in 1995 where the “NO” wins: NO: 50.56% YES: 49.44%. As you can see it was close. The federal liberals led by Jean Chrétien (influenced by Trudeau) try everything to save the unity.


So seeing that the result was close they adopt a way to save Canada. That’s were the sponsorship program scandal begins. Groupaction Inc. is chosen to promote federalism in Quebec. I’ll refer you to this (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/groupaction/timeline_origin.html) to see what happens next. Please read it.

Now, all that money was spent not only to save Canada but some part was put into the Liberal party! To not break the law, the asked Groupaction employees to give money to the liberal party and in return, the government would pay them back later with money from taxes. That’s where it becomes a big problem.

Now, Martin arrives denying everything and with a minority government that will be overthrown soon by the Bloc and the Conservatives. Again Canada is facing a crisis. On one side, the Quebec people said they have been abused by the federal liberals and on the other side the English Canadians which money was spent on helping the liberals finance themselves. Just so you know even the Italian mob was involved in this!


Now the liberals aren’t so prepared for elections since they don’t have much money to enter in a new election campaign. They spent almost everything on the last one. The press is already speculating on if there is an election soon…according to the inquiries, the conservatives would win…and the Bloc would get almost all Quebec. The Federal Liberals are banned forever in Quebec.

According to Michael Ignatieff, an author who won prizes and is now professor at Harvard, the unity of Canada is in crisis. A new election could favour the nationalists from Quebec and a referendum could be won by the YES dividing Canada.

What’s the future of Canada? You tell me…

[Geosgaeno]

wow, long post, i couldnt be bothered reading it for it is sooooo long......sorry.

[Galthol]

Then you have the current problems with the sponsership scandel (Just a small break here even if Paul Martin did not know about the scandel at the time it was happening what does that say about him he was the GODDAMN FINANCE MINISTER he should have seen aleast something)

Well anyway, I heard tell that the Gomery inquiry is the most watched program in Quebec, is there any truth to that Mithrandir.

[Mithrandir]

Yeah actually, people watch it like it was some sort of soap! hehe
Seriously, it has tv ratings higher than other shows who are popular.

[Geosgaeno]

thanks for the neg rep i didnt warrant that whatsoever, i was mearly saying i couldnt be bothered reading that ridiculously long post when it has nothing to do with me, i dont care bout Canada or America or where ever only my country matters for me. and also by the looks of how many people have posted in this thread many others dont care either but thats just my opinion, for all i know everyone cares except me.....who knows.

sorry for the inconvinience i somehow caused, i will stay away from such threads in the future.

end of.

[BAMAToNE]

thanks for the neg rep i didnt warrant that whatsoever, i was mearly saying i couldnt be bothered reading that ridiculously long post when it has nothing to do with me, i dont care bout Canada or America or where ever only my country matters for me. and also by the looks of how many people have posted in this thread many others dont care either but thats just my opinion, for all i know everyone cares except me.....who knows.

sorry for the inconvinience i somehow caused, i will stay away from such threads in the future.

end of.


I'm glad someone did it, because I would have. If you have nothing to say about this subject, then don't post anything. It's so simple I'd think a child would grasp the notion.

Anyway... wow Mith.. great post. Parts were confusing, but that's just because I'm an American hearing some of it for the first time. Honestly, I keep thinking about how the U.S. federal government clashed with the Southern states prior to the U.S. Civil War. It's not exactly the same situation, but ours became so heated that both sides came to blows. In all honesty, I might think it would be easier for the rest of Canada to "reconquer" Quebec and impose their will. "Look, this is the way it's going to be: You're going to be just another province like everyone else and stop your bitching moaning. You are no better than people from Ontario, or Manitoba, or even Saskatchewan. You're going to follow the same laws the rest of us do. That's the way it is, so learn to live with it."

If this were an American state stepping so boldly out of line with the rest of the nation, I believe the president would federalize the national guard of said state and send them in to remove the state government. (If the situation were so dire as to call for this.) Perhaps the laws that tie the provinces together hang more loosely than in the U.S. The federal government in America was really not that powerful prior to WWII. Thanks to FDR, Big Brother essentially took over the country and made states bend to his will. (I'm not arguing the necessity for it at the time.) From that point on, the power of the United States came from a central point - the federal government.

Anyway... I digress. Hope Canada gets on the right track soon. If Quebec were on a coast I'd say let them go. But you can't really let a chunk of land square in the middle of the country secede, heh. The hole would look ugly on a map. :P

[bjp4444]

You know, I was basically going to write a big long post bascially saying what BAMA did, however, I zoned out this morning, and couldn't concentrate.

One thing I'd like to add is if you actually were to let Quebec go, then your doing two things detrimental to your union.

One, the federal level of gevernment bascially loses most, if not all of its standing.

Two, you set a dangerous precedent where any other province could do the same. It would be one thing if the entire country wanted to disband the entire union, but to let them go, one by one, when they choose to, totally circumvents the federal goverenment, and its entire purpose.

It would seem as if each province [or state] would know what they were getting into when they join said union [unless they were conquered or annexed], so they must live with the consequences.

I could keep going and going with nuances and contingencies and the like, but I'm sorta tired right now. All for all, preserving the union is for the best, IMO.

-bjp

[silverDistortioN]

One, the federal level of gevernment bascially loses most, if not all of its standing.

Two, you set a dangerous precedent where any other province could do the same. It would be one thing if the entire country wanted to disband the entire union, but to let them go, one by one, when they choose to, totally circumvents the federal goverenment, and its entire purpose.i think the standing of the federal government was lost when it decided to compromise like it did for the sake of keeping quebec a province in the late 1700's. if i were in that position, i would probably have threatened to counter with an embargo or military action against the US. or both. in the late 1700's, america wasn't quite the superpower it is now... canada might have stood a chance. in the long run, it would be worth the stability of the union and whatever benefits quebec has to offer.

anyway, it's a little too late now. i doubt the canadian government will suddenly decide it illegal for quebec to secede. i mean, they haven't done anything about it so far, and there's not much evidence of them doing anything in the near future... i bet given enough time, quebec's separation is inevitable.

the canadian government *could* preserve the union through legislation, but the potential dangers of repurcussions would probably keep officials from making that kind of decision.

as for the dangerous precedent... i seriously doubt other provinces would want to declare their independence. quebec seems particularly the exception in this case.

[Galthol]

Originally Posted by silverDistortioN
. . . as for the dangerous precedent... i seriously doubt other provinces would want to declare their independence. quebec seems particularly the exception in this case.
Well it might give "King Ralph" ideas, and well if you follow canadain politics, thats not a good thing. This is the man who went in a homeless shelter a couple of years ago on Christmas and drunknly told all the homless people to go get a job you worthless drunks.

Also I think it was during the depression when Alberta became a 'dustbowl' we in the east helped out and sent food out west. Then when out fishermen ask for better EI payments and cheaper oil, (This was recently mind you) Albeta refuses to pay EI and sell oil cheaper in Canada. Thats not all, Someone gets the bright idea to make bumper stickers that said

"Let the eastren bastards freeze in the dark"

Hows that for nationality

[silverDistortioN]

well, at this point, the danger of other provinces seceding is pure speculation. if quebec does separate, the opportunity will be created to produce reactionary legislation to strengthen the unity of the remaining provinces. i think it would be wise to produce that legislation right now, but i highly doubt parliament's willingness in doing so.

other than that, there's nothing you can do about it. so i suppose it's better to offer these kinds of ralphian ideas than it is to offer nothing.

[Ephraim]

I'm just worried about what'll happen to the Maritime provinces if Quebe separates. Where will we go? We'll be separated from the rest of Canada.

[bjp4444]

I've got friends in Vermont. Will that help?

-bjp

[Mithrandir]

Bah, it isn't like when Quebec separates, we all become ennemies :p

The situation has become quite serious:

1-The conservatives wanted to adopt a motion that would get us into elections but the Liberals postponed the day where the opposition can do so. So now, the conservatives and the other parties are blocking the works of in the house of commons.

2-Paul Martin will do for the first time ever, a speech for the nation. Wonder what he will talk about but this is the first time ever a prime minister does so.

[BAMAToNE]

2-Paul Martin will do for the first time ever, a speech for the nation. Wonder what he will talk about but this is the first time ever a prime minister does so.

Wait... this is the first time Paul Martin has addressed the nation? Or it's the first time a Prime Minister has addressed the nation? That would be quite curious...

[Mithrandir]

Well, the thing is: All the partys have 6 minutes after Paul Martin to do the same.

This is not a debate and that's why it's weird. This is the first time I see such a thing.

[Galthol]

See I think the conservites want an early election because they don't want the vote after the Inquiry is finished. I think that later in the year we will learn of a Conservite involvement. Which will invovle Belinda Stronac + Steven Harper having and affiar behind Peter Mackays back.

[TheDragonKnight]

I have to admit im much less aware of this topic than id like to admit however that said, on to my rant.

<rant>
Quebec already has more political pull tha nmost provincies becasue of concessions previously granted them, i really fail to see what they are bitching about. i mean i know some good people from Quebec, but it seems the majority (or at least their politicans) are idiots.

if i ahd my way id say, let em seperate and the second its offical march the damn army in, annex them and lay down the law.

i hear the most bitching about preserving their culture, so? noones stoping them, it is entirely a persons choice to speak french or english, but the basic truth is that ENGLISH is the language of international buisness. hell tehy dont eve nspeak real french anymore its a basterdized version if i recall correctly.

but fine tehy have their own distinct culture, fine they wish to preserve it, nobody or nothign is stopping them, however from where im stiing the french in Quebec are the once operssing the english there i mean anywhere else in the coutnry everything has a french and english lable, but only in Quebec must the french be the prominent one.

Canada is a democratic country and as such teh majority of the peopel decide what happens here (supposedly, but thats a different argument) what some of these peopel need to accept is that the french (or at last the Quebec version of it) speakers in canada are a MINORITY and the policies and laws may not reflect their views all the time, after all the majroity of the country isnt even from Quebec let alone the french speaking population of Quebec.

seperating would be no realistic solution, can Quebecas a lone provice suppourt itself? or do tehy plan on joining the states? and if the latter do they really think bush will put up with their bullshit? id think he'd take less than Canada has.

If Quebec seperated and i was teh canadain political leader at the time, id place a nice BIG fat trade embargo on them and economicaly squeeze until they needed to rejoin canada and would do so under some reasonable terms (IE you get no more say than anyone else) course im a bastard so i dont think thats going to happen, hoever even without that i think thered be some fees to prevent free trade, it would bea most efficent way for canada to show its displeasure at the seperation.

Even without any oter issues the sheer political and paperwrk assoicated with a new country would be insane, first off, could the new country of Quebec suppourt it self? does it have a standing army capable of its own self defence? (bush has proven if you cant stand up for your self nobody will) said new country will need to establish new diplomatic ties, as well as trade agreements, speaking of trade, Quebec is going to need to import ALOT, whats it got to sell? Will Quebec draft its own laws? or keep Canadas? what about currency? new political structer? who leads? under what athourity? what about the english speaking population, or even those french who simply dont care enough to seperate? soemhow i dont think they are as opressed as the propaganda would have us beleive.

is a 50 precent majority enough? seperating a country is a major decesion, i think tehy should need at least a 2/3 majority for that, after all major decesions in our poitical structer require higher precetnages of a vote depending on the severity of the ction, id say seperating is pretty severe.

Will teh federal government agree to let teh coutnry go even if a provicanl vote passes? if not we have a potential for civil war, i dont think it would be any where near as large scale as teh american one was, and i also dont think it would end in favor of Quebec.

im courious as well, if teh states have an ofical positions on this possibility? prehaps plans for how to deal with the new seperate Quebec if it does seperate.

teh fact is i dont think a political or econimic presence as small as Quebec would have could surive in the world, todays world is dominated by big buisness, and little guys get eaten. (dont beleive me ask wallmart how many local town shops tehyve put out of buisness) as part of canada Quebec enjoys free trade with teh rest of canada, as well as all the favoriable arrangments we have with other countries (most noteabley the states. alone they would eb without them.

The world has changed in 1700 seperating might have been a realistic goal, today it is not.

Ive gota question to finish off with, if Quebec seperated, how long do you think it would take the Opressed english speaking population of this new country to hold their own vote and split the new Quebec down the middle? or rejoin canada?

ahh to hell with it its a pipe dream in todays worl i jstu dont think it could work (happen mabey, work no)

</rant>

[BAMAToNE]

if i ahd my way id say, let em seperate and the second its offical march the damn army in, annex them and lay down the law.


Damn straight!

[Galthol]

I second that motion!

[bjp4444]

Hey, did that PM address happen yet? Was just wondering what he said, along with the responses. [Here in the US, the opposing party usually does have a response after, say, the State of The Union, so I don't find that part weird.]

-bjp

[Geosgaeno]

ive never seen a country leader address the public live, i believe it isnt an often task that they do unless in serious times like i think G.Bush did it on September 11th.

[BAMAToNE]

ive never seen a country leader address the public live, i believe it isnt an often task that they do unless in serious times like i think G.Bush did it on September 11th.

The president of the United States gives a State of the Union address on television every year.

[Galthol]

Hey, did that PM address happen yet? Was just wondering what he said, along with the responses. [Here in the US, the opposing party usually does have a response after, say, the State of The Union, so I don't find that part weird.]

-bjpYeah he did. There was nothing new. He of course denied direct involvement in the sponsership scandel. (Snorts) But like i said I think the Conservites have thier fingers in the pie somewhere. I get to vote in the next election whenever it happens so I want to vote I belive it is a right and a responsiblity to vote, if you dont vote you shoudn't get to say. "this is whats wrong with the govt. So yeah I get to choose from the

Liberals
Consertives
The New Democratic Party
The Green Party
I really dont know where to place my vote :(

[Geosgaeno]

whatever you do, do not vote for the Liberals or the Green party (thats only if the green party are like the british green party), well if you believe in what they say they will do go for it, but be warned about the future if they get into power.

the British General Election takes place in 2 days and my cousin misses voting by one day, unlucky for him ehh.

[Locke]

Personally, I think that mayhaps Mith should be able to toss in some personalized info (assuming my memory is correct and that you do indeed live in Quebec) regarding the feel of the quebec people today in regards to seperation, etc.
On another side note, even were Quebec to seperate it would most likely loose land to the Rest of Canada in order to enable those of us over in the maritimes to remain part of Canada. All in all I don't think that it could possibly work.
As per an election popping up, I doubt that it'll happen too soon. There will probly be a bunch or shady deals that we won't hear about, and the government will continue to slowly grind the wheels.


And Galthol, to influence your vote in random directions, Pat Binn's daughter went to our school, the NDP guy for montague is Bobby Peripoli's father, and Green Party generally try's to get marijuana legalised. (at least, that's what I got out of the rally they had in town that I went too. The liberals tend to be supported mostly by old people. Hope that helps your voteing dilemma.

[Galthol]

the NDP guy for montague is Bobby Peripoli's father, .

Really? Well, I think I'll just wait to attend some rallies myself. But I am leaning towards a Green Party/NDP vote.

[TheDragonKnight]

i think who were going to vote for is slightly off topic, if you watn to switch to various political partys stance on this issue that would be different, however since this thread is teh first ive heard of it in quite a while id guess that a farily universal policy of avoidance is in effect :P


heres a question, the deire to seperate has spawned a terrorist arm of that political movement, if this issue esclated do you think the US would try to use taht as an excuse to send troops into quebec? tehy are after all engaged in a "war on terror". our own governemnt has proven its spinelessness by letting it get this far, we should ahve told quebec to STFU the first time ti started making noise and jsut droped something heavy on teh peopel that didnt, i mean really noones stoppingthem from speaking french (or at least theri version of it) or teaching it to their children, no matter waht laws they get passed the fact remains that tehy are all going ot ahve to speak english if they expect to deal with the majority of teh out side world (to say nothing of the rest of their country). and shit if canada is so bad why are they still here?nothing is stopping individuals from moving to other countries

i can apreciate their desire to preserve their culture but damn, theres such a thing as going too far.

<you wanna know who im gonna vote for? im gonna vote for teh first bastid to tell the sepretists to either shut the fuck up or move to france! cynical mabey but satasfing>

[SeymourGuado]

one things for certain, the future is bright and the future is without paul martin.

Seifer Almasy

[SeymourGuado]

I suspected that he would lose that vote of no confidence but to win it by 1 vote is a bit suspicious to me.

Anyway, him and his minority government will be gonners at the next election is what I meant;)

Seifer Almasy

[Mithrandir]

I was so mad when he declared after the vote that:

"There is no doubt that the vote could not have been closer. The government has the confidence of the House, but I believe it is very important from our part and from the part of the opposition that we now make this Parliament work the way that Canadians want it to."

How can he say he has the confidence of the house when the vote was 152-152 and the president of the house had to decide of his future. (Fortunately for Martin, the president voted gave him his confidence)

Right now, I am so mad at liberals....more precisely at Paul Martin. But let's not forget all the party is behind him so...I shall never vote for the liberals except under extraordinary circumstances.

Here, read the story: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-05-19-canada-politics_x.htm

To answer your question Locke, according to polls done in the last few months, separation would win if there was a new referendum. The political scene in the Quebec province doesn'T help either. The liberals (provincial party) are governing like they do it for the first time, doing mistakes and making the population angry. So, that makes the PQ (separatist party) a better option to the majority of people even though there is a third party that is waiting to show what he's capable of without bringing the constitutional question oin every debate as the liberals and the PQ do. So anyway, you have all the conditions to favour the separatist vote....which makes me think that this time, it might be the real thing....

[Galthol]

Well another election is in out midst, the longest one for 21 years. Plus for the first time in history (I think) Canada is without a legal goverment. The vote of non-confidience was passed on monday and an election has been called for the 23 of January. I for one predict that which ever party wins the election they will do so with a minority.

Also your thoughts on Paul Maritin, sure he didn't have anything to do with the sponsership scandel, but he was the finance minister at the time, that doesn't exaclty give me the most confidence in him.

[Lance Alvein]

All that I can say about Paul Martin & the sponsorship scandel:

Paul Martin was the finance minister at the time. If he was not involved in the money trading, and if he didn't know anything about it, then he wasn't doing his job properly. Is this really the type of man that we want as our prime minister?

[Locke]

Personally I don't think that any of our leaders are looking too promising right now. We've got Paul Martin, who just lost a vote of no confidence, Jack Layton (sp), who to me looks very shifty and would probly ruin the country, we have Steven Harper, who .... I'll not get into it, and we've got Gilles Duceppe, who lead's the Bloc Quebecois, a party that I lost all respect for when they tried to get Quebec to seperate from the rest of Canada, possibly one of the worst idea's I've heard of in ages. Worse then bush's, imho. Meh, that's my opinion in brief form at the moment, and please, these are only my personal opinion on the government right now, so let's not start flaming over political beliefs please :D (That is, assuming that there's anybody here Canadian that cares that overly much, anyways)

[Mithrandir]

I've made my mind for the next election. I'm voting conservative even though there are some radical christians among them.

As for the Bloc, I'm not voting for them. Though every people in the Quebec province will probably vote for the Bloc. This DOES NOT mean that everyone in Quebec who voted Bloc is a separatist. It just means Quebec isn't well represented by the other parties. I mean the conservatives doesn't seem to care that much about Quebec, the Liberals litteraly betrayed Quebec. The NDP has a chef who doesn't look too dynamic and well the Green Party....let's just skip that part. The Block has always well defended the interests of the Quebec province since the Meech accords fell. If Harper reall y watned to have a mojoritary governement then he should focus more of his time in Quebec and getting rid of all those radicals in his party. That way, he could win easily an election.

[BAMAToNE]

I thought this was hilarious, lol!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html

[Locke]

It is quite funny. I find it rather funny that they forgot to mention in this part:

During the War of 1812, American troops invaded Canada several times. They were driven back.

Canada countered the invasion by burning down the white house. Funny how that wasn't mentioned by the washington post, eh :p :rofl:

[kai]

Problem is that our military is about as strong now as it was then and the US has grown superior in both numbers and technology. However Canada is well liked through out the world (for the most part) unlike the US, so I wouldn't be too worried.

It seems Canadians go on how Bush is such an idiot and he should never have been put into power but our choices aren't that much better. Martin is just out of luck, with their track record going into this election I'm going to say the Liberals won't be defeating the Conservatives. Problem is Harper is no better and probably worse. In my eyes he's just our version of Bush, last election he was for the War in Iraq however now he's against it :confused: His entire campaign this time was just targeteting the generic Canadian (people feel like he connects with them :crazy: ) , according to recent surveys the majority of conservative voters are generally un-educated. And well the other parties only have limited appeal and generally don't get the majority of votes.

I don't follow elections and generally avoid elections unless I think a party can make a benificial difference. Above was just what I've picked up from unrelated articles over time.


Edit : :flagca: Does it seem to any fellow Canadians here that most Canadians know more about Bush and the American government than their own?

[Locke]

Edit : :flagca: Does it seem to any fellow Canadians here that most Canadians know more about Bush and the American government than their own?
It does appear that may be true, but that might also be something along the lines that we don't have the whole patriotic thing going against somebody being a bad president, and we tend to pay alot of attention to things that are happening down south with an ignorant redneck in charge of the most powerful military in the world ;)

Also might have something to do that in Canada we can get away with having Bush calenders and such which basically list off the stupid things bush has said (my gf has one), so that might have something to do with it too. Meh, whatever works.

[Mithrandir]

I (and I must specify that you might not share my vision of Canada) would prefer to see Stephen Harper at the head of our country instead of Martin.

If you ask me Martin's career ends if he doesn't win this election. The liberals seem to have made so much bad moves recently that they have no chance (unless Harper does something stupid) of winning the election. Paul Martin is confusing lately, he says something, then he says it wasn't true, then he says it was true then he says it's not. I enjoy looking at the liberals panicking. Mainly looking at Jean Lapierre (which I hate oh god, he's the worst politician EVER) trying to criticise everything.

Sure, the liberals are scaring the hell out of people by saying: Oh look at Harper, he's a Bush clone. He wants soldiers in every street and so on.

And by the way, you surely have seen that Liberal ad which first Martin said was approved by him, then says it was not, then some other guy in the liberal says it was approved by Martin, then someone else in the Liberals says it was sent by error, that one was eliminated from the choices. No one seems to have an idea of who did what.

The Bloc....well don't get me started on that. Quebec doesn't need the bloc right now. What good is the Bloc for Quebec? As long as Quebec is part of Canada, the province has nothing to gain to vote for a party who will stay forever in the opposition. And more and more quebecers are starting to see that and vote for the conservatives. As for the NDP....well if Jack Layton was more dynamic...maybe I would vote for him.

Harper says he wants to get out of Kyoto. Well, we aren't even respecting Kyoto right now so what it's gonna change? He wants every province to set a legislation on how much we should produce in CO2. It's not so bad. He says he will consult the population about the anti-missile shield project. What's bad about that? He will CONSULT. Also he wants to give minorities the place they deserve. Oh wait...he's a right-wing guy right? He must be evil and plotting something? Come on! We live in Canada...not Haiti! We have the chart of right and liberties to protect us from the government doing something wrong.

A deficit on a consevative government? I can't say no to that but will the budget surplus the liberals have been creating lately, I don't think we should worry.

Oh and there is still hesitation if there will be a minoritary or majoritary conservative government. But I chose my camp, it will be conservatives anway, for my city it's better that way...and for the Quebec and Canada I want.

[Lance Alvein]

I voted Conservative in the advance poll last night.

While the running liberal has done fairly well, I didn't want to vote for him because of Paul Martin... and I've never heard of the NDP or the Green who are running in the area. It seemed to be the lesser of all evils :p

[Locke]

I'll need to go vote on the 23rd, but I don't know for sure who I'll vote for yet. We'll see I suppose.

[kai]

I'm voting Green Party, I don't like them either however they have no chance in winning and no one can say otherwise (really now be realistic) so I'll toss my vote to the wind and hope some sort of plague wipes out elected officials. In my opinion all poloticians are as bad as Bush he's just more public about being a spoiled ass who thinks he can do whatever he wants because he's wealthy and controls weapons of mass destruction.

[BAMAToNE]

Responding to Mith - I hope someone else pulls out of the Kyoto Treaty just so we won't be the only ones, heh. Sure, I'd like to help the environment, but not at the economy's expense. Necessity is the mother of invention. When oil really does start running short, the bigwigs and scientists will make the switch to hydrogen power. Until then, business as usual.

[Locke]

Responding to Mith - I hope someone else pulls out of the Kyoto Treaty just so we won't be the only ones, heh. Sure, I'd like to help the environment, but not at the economy's expense. Necessity is the mother of invention. When oil really does start running short, the bigwigs and scientists will make the switch to hydrogen power. Until then, business as usual.We already have reached the peak for oil or will reach it in the next year or two. Personally I doubt the "big wigs" will make the switch for quite a while, and the main reason that apparently money is worth more then the earth itself :wonder:

Meh, I doubt Canada will pull out of it, and personally I'm kinda hoping that they'll hurry up and impeach bush and that whoever comes in next will be a little bit more eco-friendly.

[kai]

Global Warming to Speed Up as Carbon Levels Show Sharp Rise http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011606R.shtml

I know this is in the news thread but I fealt it has some relevance to the current discussion as well.

Kyoto may not be the answer (I for one think it's pretty much moot at this point) however it is a start. Until we develop some sort of technology allowing us to repair the damage we've done to the planet no amount of "cutting back" is going to save us. The damage is already done and is just gaining momentum. But before that can ever happen people will have to start pulling their heads out of their asses and wake up to global warming and the curruption that is our government.

[BAMAToNE]

I would believe Stalin on his deathbed before anything I read from truthout.org. It's just a mouthpiece for leftists like Michael Moore who are out of touch with reality.

Just a couple of links. Don't want to get into this too deeply. This is a thread about Canada afterall.

http://www.counterpunch.org/levitch0514.html
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2596.html

[Mithrandir]

Heh indeed, it would be like if I wanted to talk you about arguments for guns, I would show you the link to the NRA :p

Bah, looks like we could have three ministers from Quebec, including the conservative who is presenting herself in my city. I'm really happy to see Quebec is finally leaving the Bloc.

[Mithrandir]

I find it funny that this news was put in the "Oddly enough" section of a newspaper!

It was a news about the Michael Moore statement on the upcoming canadian election.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=192 (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=192)

[kai]

umm? Truthout.org mainly has articles from writers of papers from all over the world, for example the article I posted below :

Global Warming to Speed Up as Carbon Levels Show Sharp Rise
By Geoffrey Lean
The Independent UK

Side Note : I HATE Michael Moore!!! :mad: He only ever tells one side of the story, simply making documentaries that show what he wants people to see, ultimately forcing the generic citizen to share his views. I truely can't stand the man.

Edit :

Here's one from the LA Times :

'Green' Measures Key to Earth's Future, Report Says
By Usha Lee McFarling
The Los Angeles Times

http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/012006EA.shtml

Commissioned by the United Nations, the work is a four-year effort by 1,300 scientists from 95 countries.

Note : After your post Batamone I've been researching the site to see if their articles are indeed from the papers they claim. Though I believe them to be I have to be sure as it is one of my top 10 favorite news sites, and I read it quite often.

[Locke]

Side Note : I HATE Michael Moore!!! :mad: He only ever tells one side of the story, simply making documentaries that show what he wants people to see, ultimately forcing the generic citizen to share his views. I truely can't stand the man.
I am 100% in agreement with you on this one Kai. Michael Moore is in no way worth having as much of a following as he does. He's rather biased and full of himself, imo...

So yeah, conservative government. Personally I think this worked out rather well this election, because I am in the opinion that if any of our current leaders got into power they'd screw over the country in one way or another, so this way they can counter eachothers bad moves. Should prove interesting to see how this pans out.

[Mithrandir]

Yeah, I don't like Michael Moore either.

As for the elections, I am very happy with the results. I live in the area #7. As you can see, the majority of Quebec City and its surroundings voted conservative!

http://www.edgarehernandez.net/Bazar/qc.jpg


The dark blue is for Conservatives, the light blue for the Bloc and well, the gray is for independent. By the way, Portneuf (area 51) is the only place where an independent was elected...it's a controversed ex radio show host who won.

It was really a surprise for the conservatives to see that Quebec City has become dark blue!

Screw the Bloc in Quebec City!

[Lance Alvein]

Wow. That is surprising. I knew that the conservatives has more votes in Quebec than they have in many years, but I didn't realize that many of them were from Quebec City.O_O

[Mithrandir]

Heh, yeah, and now the leftist are all like:
"Oh noes, Quebec City is full of hardcore christians who are pro-life, homophobes, bush clones..."

and so on.

That is way far from the truth.

[BAMAToNE]

...it's a controversed ex radio show host who won.
You mean controversial?

Glad to see your elections went better than the Palestinian one... yeesh.

[Mithrandir]

You surely have heard about this in the last days:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/07/documents07062006.html

I have absolutely no respect for these kind of people. If the RCMP has solid proofs, they shouldn't even have the right to have a trial.

I know many canadians don't have the same opinions as me but I feel like I have to express myself on this issue.

This people are part of this country and want to destroy it. And all of that because we sent our troops to Afghanistan?

I was reading the newspapers this week and many articles got me really mad. There were some hippies who were saying that our country was being targeted because we elected a conservative governement. And so we deserved to be attacked. WTF?! That plot was being followed by the RCMP for two years now...it wasn't because we elected Harper.

And don't we have the right to vote for who we want? Harper got elected democratecaly(sp?) so in no way we should be victims of those people because they have different convictions.

Another hippie was deliberately defending those terrorists and telling that it was all a madeup story by the governement.

From what I saw, those terrorists had 3 tons of stuff to make explosives. It was already connected to a cell phone to be a detonator. The attack was really close. It could have been intwo weeks or even this week.

I don,t know why some people are blind and refuse to believe all sorts of things. If those terrorists would have succeeded, then all those hippies out there would have blamed the governement for their laxism and all sorts of other things.

Democracy has to win over terror. Let,s not go too far and start listening to everyone's conversations like in the US. Still, I believe security is important because we are a target because of our values.

I just hope, that canadians realise that we have to start checking about that kind of threat. We have to take that seriously and stop thinking we are in security. We live in a new world...a world terrorised by extremist groups like Al-Qaeda, the ETA, the FARC, the guerrillas, the talibans, the Hamas...

In the war against terror, Canada has to do its part.


Oh, and I forgot.

The RCMP says there is a community in northern ontario where those terrorists trained themselves. The people liveing there denied EVERYTHING. And that even though there were bullet holes and bullets found near trees...I hope that the people living there are under surveillance.

[Locke]

It was indeed close... but I dunno about this whole war on terror. Yes, I don't think terrorists should be allowed to ... well... live, but the war on terror isn't actually about terrorism. Economics feuled that one. If there were an effective way to fight terrorists, then I would be full behind it. Bush's bombing of afghanistan actually doubled or tripled the amount of Al Queda support and signee's as opposed to doing anything at all to stop it.

As to the terrorists in Canada... I hope they get the book thrown at them :flagca:

Edit: Saw your addition. I would imagine that they are all under survailence, if not by the police then by CSIS.

[Mithrandir]

Well, it's been quite some time since my last post about Canada and I feel it's time to do another one.

Recently, there's been a polemic about whether Canadian troops should stay in Afghanistan or no.

Well, this is due to the fact that many canadian soldiers have lost their lives lately during operations.

Well I was reading the newspaper and a text about a journalist from the CBC, that expressed her personal opinions (but apparently she got in trouble for that (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1157753409575&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467) ). She was praising the mission to Afghanistan.

But why should we stay in Afghanistan?

Well, we all were raised in a country were you have the right to educate yourself and go to school without being repressed. I believe education is important to a society in order to progress. If you ask me, countries where school is not accessible to everyone is where there are problems...but that's another debate. In Afghanistan, during the Taliban period, girls were not allowed to have education. Now, thanks to the NATO force, women are allowed to educate themselves.

Imagine, your country is helping women to get educated. It is absolutely outrageous that the talibans forbid that to the point of killing. Disgusting. I am proud to say that my country is helping a society get back on its feet. :flagca:

Sure, it's not going to be easy but I find that it is a noble mission. (Note that I'm only talking about the Afghanistan mission, not Iraq)

Nobody wants war. Nobody wants death. But sometimes, to get justice and order, some sacrifices have to be made.

And the freaking NPD is trying to get the troops back. It is absolutely irresponsible to do that at this moment. Even the Liberals and the Bloc agree that it's irresponsible. Please, someone tell Jack Layton to stop living in its cloud.

[Locke]

He might just be stoned. If memory serves he showed up on weed tv a couple times...

The thing about the wars over there is that there's really not a whole lot that Canadian troops should be over there for. We're a peace core, not a militant country... helping with schools, yes, helping the sick and injured or starving, yeah, we're good at that. But helping run operations.... I don't think we should be involved in that.

Disclaimer: All statements made by me are nothing but my own personal opinions. :p