Teacher vs. Student

[BAMAToNE]

Basically, this teacher is gung-ho about the use of force during the announcements/Pledge of Allegiance, requiring the students to stand. He also seems to enjoy yelling down to them, and in this case pulled the chair out from under the student in question. The teacher has yet to be punished, but the student filming it was suspended because filming the teacher violated the teacher's rights.

What say you?

Link to article with video (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)
Direct link to video (http://images.indymedia.org/imc/nyc/video/13/mantel-chairincident.wmv)

[daniel]

requires no thought. Answer, teacher should be punished.

[Ephraim]

Agreed, I think the threat of violence claims a higher priority than such a minor violation of rights (and I mean minor, relative to the teacher's own actions)

[silverDistortioN]

in what way was that even remotely unconstitutional? surveillance is legal as long as at least one of the parties being taped is aware of it. or do they plan on repealing that law?

and in what way is pulling the kid's chair out from under him while refusing to stand even remotely lawful?

if they don't at least suspend the teacher, i could see legal action being taken against both him and the school.

[Lord Draud]

man this is one more case of stupidy, in canada we stand for our anthem and anyone that does not gets sent to the office in the us the teacher beat there students if they don't, here is my fix for it sif the kids don't stand for the anthem shot them, if anyone complains shot them ITS YOUR COUNTRY DAMN IT and while you might not agree with it stand up and show your still willing to work to change it or move to canada or your greatest allie mexico!

FUCK BUSH peace

[Mithrandir]

Er...Lord Draud, this might have happenned in one of our canadian schools so please consider that before even saying anything about the US...

I think for this, the teacher has to get punished in some sort of way, that kind of education is unacceptable. Okay the student did not stand up but heck that's not something you have to punish in that way. Instead of doing what the teacher did , I would have had a talk with him after school, trying to know exactly why he didn't stand up. In my opinion, no one should be forced to be to a certain level of patriotism. I mean, people are free to do whatever they want though sometimes it leads to stupidity.

As for the other student filming it, it's completely ridiculous that he gets sued for that....well...in this case. I'm not saying you can film anything anywhere.

So, yeah, and as for your Bush comment, you know, I don't really like Paul Martin at the head of my country...you know who i voted for at the last elections? Stephen Harper. :flagca: There's more to politics that war and such, economy is also important for a country and Paul Martin has done nothing to help our economy (though it's doing great). Don't get me started about the Bloc (yeah I hate the bloc even if I'm from Quebec) or the NDP, they suck.

Speaking of Paul Martin, if he keeps our exterior policy, cause if we keep it that way, China is going to take our place at the top of the exporting countries. Did you know we are in the top on that? But Paul Martin refuses to do antything about that. What about subventions to poor countries. Sure, we get a good image,b ut did you know that money is distributed in countries where several violation occur on human rights? Does that money really goes to the poor people of those countries? I'm not saying we should stop sending money,I'm just saying,w eshould review our policies about that to makesure we really help and there's not some kind of disguised dictator that gets all the money.

But I'm getting off topic here ....

[daniel]

yeah i agree on that mithrandir...i like bush...paul martin seems too liberal too

[Marona]

agreed.person has a right to honor their country because they love the freedom or not because of the insanity.

If they force a person from another country to stand and they don't want to honor it,i would stand up.Even if they expel me.

oh yeh btw...suspending the boy..i think thats wrong because the teacher could have done things like this before and the people didn't believe him so he wanted to show proof.

[Lord Draud]

well considering that in canada we don't have the Pledge of Allegiance its sorta given what country it is. i was more pissed at the kid geting kicked outa school then the guy not standing realy, but it seems stupid not to stand for the country you choose to live in the anthem is not about what government is in power its about the nation as a whole! honesty i would tell off any one that did not show proper respect for they land they are standing on....this also goes towards lippy imergrents that think that life will be handed to them on a plater, i know lots and lots of hard working people that where not born here and they hate the freeloaders more then i do because they are begging and making them all look bad, but i regress to a earlyer topic sorry, oh and just so every one knows i voted Communist party i hate my government to but in the end i would rather stand and say I AM CANADIAN! then sit and go I AM NOTHING!

[TheDragonKnight]

Draud. the fourm rules say to add to the thread here, have you even read the article we have been linked to? i do not think you are helping this topic.

since the teacher was clearly flipping out <man what a spazz he needs some vacation time!> before the video started we cant really say who started it. however. it is his JOB as a teacher to NOT lose his temper like that regardless of provcation. this alone makes him bad it my book.

heres where it gets tricky however, canadian law provides for teachers to use coporal punishment on students, this is also the case in most states from what i can find, however the state this occoured in is one of the few to ban physical punishment of studients, so this teacher is clearly in voilation of state law, he cannot hide behind his position as a teacher. <the file i found only covered rulings up to 1992 though ifind it unliely that the state repealed its decesion to ban coporal punishment from schools almost 140 years after drafting it.>

this man clearly should not be a teacher. i have seen better teachers lose their careers over less <simple acusation of wrong doing>. One of the comments on the linked article suggeted the teacher be suspended without pay pending legal action. I would tend to agree.

[silverDistortioN]

just for clarification, most states have banned corporal punishment.

[BAMAToNE]

Everytime I see something like this or a free speech issue or anything, it makes me that much gladder I went to private school.

In public schools, it is not mandatory to say the Pledge. It is against the rules for that kid to secretly tape his teacher. It is also against the rules for that teacher to spaz out and verbally abuse a student. (You might say pulling a chair out from under a kid is physical abuse as well.)

My judgment: The suspension of the student for 10 days for taping the teacher was harsh, imo. Three days is plenty. However, the teacher should be placed on paid leave while an investigation is started to see if he really is fit to teach. If at the end of the investigation it is deemed that he is not, he is pink slipped. The wellbeing of the students far outweighs the teacher's right not to be secretly taped, imo.

[TheDragonKnight]

Having prsonaly been subject to the abuse of athourity figures my self i suppose my views on this are rather harsh towards the teacher however i would like to add. if they caught him doing this on tape with littel to no planning, what has this teacher done before this to makethe studients confident they could catch him going off the deep end like this?

<edit: as of the date of the artice i found it was still legal in 30 states (or was that not legal in 30 states? cant really remember. however as i sad before this article is out of date so i would not be suprised ifhte number of states that do not allow it have gone up>

[Blade Tanaka]

Well I know that imeadiatly I though the teacher should definatly be punished but lets review the facts here... Personally I belive the should be punished, there are other non-agressional ways wiht dealing inthese kind of situations.. ie metioned sending him to the office. and asking him to leave and telling him the importance of standing blah blah blah

Also I belive that the student should be punished. In a way wht he has done icpuld beconsidered a hat crime un or anti partiatism, as wel in dome casses I supose it could have meant a sense of terrorismin a gorvormental way

A for the guy who cougth this on film I belive he should be givena rewad/warning. What was brave and Benifical exploiting the unfortunate events like tis. But also in a diffrent senario what he did wAS wrong and unfortuantly unaceptable.

Thoughreally I'm just trying to include everuones side of this story and you may not agree but, hey! I'm jsut a kid right? ^o^

[TheDragonKnight]

Hate crime? terrorism? im sorry but ..ARE YOU STUPID?

i mean seriously, i can only assume you have no idea what a hate crime actualy is, and as for terroism? since this happened in teh US lets use the FBI's own definetion.

As defined by the FBI, "the unlawful use of force against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof, in the furtherance of political or social objectives". This definition includes three elements: (1) Terrorist activities are illegal and involve the use of force. (2) The actions are intended to intimidate or coerce. (3) The actions are committed in support of political or social objectives. (FEMA-SS)


according to this definetion you'd have better luck pressing the terrorism case agaisnt the teacher! infact from here it looks damn likely! its a shaky case i would admit but the teachers actions actualy fit this defination. Actualy its a litte disturbing how broad that defination is, the teacher is obviously not a terrorist.

but on to the body of your post. you say there are non-agressive (by which i take to mean non-voilent)solutions. except thats kind of a given here. in that state the only acceptable and legal ways to handle ANYTHING between a teacher and a student are without the use of force.

Silvers quoteing of the laws that apply show that the studient was not in voilation of the law (though im sure when that law wasa drafted it was envisioned to help invistigative services not a student making his teacher look like the fool his is)

im not sure about any of the rules that paticualr school may have but in the case of Legal vs Illgeal the teacher broke the law, the student did not. so far its still legal for someone to sit through the national anthem, of course just give bush some time, im sure if he sees this he'll be working on it.

[Blade Tanaka]

What about the cold war there was no force only a threat people pulling out more guns and threats bigger thatn the next not much force was taken but was still related to terrorism. I'm not saying the student did anything crimanal but it wsen' the best coasre of action there a better ways of proving a point then being in ignorant fool. I'm not really being on the teachers side either. From my stand point the only persons side I'm on id the one who caught it on film even then his outcome could have been worse too. ^o^

[TheDragonKnight]

The Former Soviet Union is not a terrorist orginazation, for one, though i fail to see how tht coudl relate to this topic at all. there is no comparison, War has rules and is legal, there are mandated standards for its formal declaration, rules on treatment of prisioners, and standards dictating what valid targets are. Terrorism has no rules. terrorists target mainly civillian centers (mainly becasue they lack the ability to inflict damage on military targets, though personally id say places like the pentagon and the white house are legitamet targets)

stop trying to change the subject, if you cannot see for your self that this couldnt possibly be an act of terrorism, just take my word for it.

[Blade Tanaka]

Okay let's drop the terrorism. (however it is not off topic to state my own opinion) You forgot one more thing that I meationed. "Un-Patiotic" I agree to whta Draud said. I would much rather say "I am Canadian" then "I am Nothing" What he did there says to me: " I don't belive in what passt generations have done to free me and my country. I don't belive in the wars fought by our ancestors. I don't Belive that the line "don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes.""Though I do not have much faith in the Amercans I do know that they started off as a great and nobal country. I also know that Bush has the potieial to make America a great country. I fell the reason he one the Elections was because of insted of standin there and saying "I promise you this and this" he said "this is waht I belive and this is what I will get you and this I do not tolorate" he gave his standerds out. But waht I fell this student has done should be punished because it is a disgrace to his nation. Most of all I would never do this because I AM proud to be Canadian. I AM proud that I am treatee with respect when i travel abroad. I AM proud that I hold my country with honor adn that I AM part of somthing great and that I do know it. That is why I belive the student should be punihed too. What the teacher did was wrong, but we cannot over look the student because the teacher should haev been setting the example. And most of all no argument will change my mind. NOT because I am ignorant or blunt and don't like to listen. In fact I ebjoy what you have to say and uderstand your point. But the fact is: this is waht I belive. ^o^

[TheDragonKnight]

check again, not being proud of your country isnt a crime! hell! were talking about highschool students i doubt hes politicaly motivated about this.

im happy for you that your proud of your country, thats good, your even prouder of your current leader, which is debatable, but again another topic, unless you can pull some miraclous terrorist connections out your ass linking these students to the WTC events or something i can only say your statments still lack anything in the way of facts, or even intelligence. you may not like the fact that he doesnt want to stand, BUT IF HE DOESNT WANT TO, ITS HIS CHOICE

[Lord Draud]

yes its his choice but it means he is not showing respect for his country and while i agree that in it self is not an act of terrorism it is the us we are talking about they banned flag burning and hell in some states you can be arrested for not taking care of your flag, they take respect for there country serously and if by high school you down know that standing for your anthem is a sign of respect for the land your on then what the hell are you doing in highschool? and yes yes i have read the artical and seen the video and if you can draw a line from point a to b to c you will see what iwas talking about but then again you where never all that intuitive

[TheDragonKnight]

nice to see you still cant manage to post without the insult at me druad, grow up.

Yes tehy take it seriosuly ther i agree and flag burning is agaisnt the law, and if your flying the US flag with another flag the US flag must be equal to or higher than the other country, persoanly i think thats going a bit overboard but thats besidd steh point.

this kid didnt want to stand for the national anthem in school, SO FREAKING WHAT despite all the other patriot/anit-patriot laws tehy ahve tehy still arent REQUIRED to stand for their anthem, no obviously you can show some respect for others and shut up during it,thats reasonable, and hell likely listed in the school rules (silence during morening excersizes) however even if it was a 10 day suspension is going overbaord since the kid was indeed silent! he didnt say a word untill the teacher directly adresed him, and hell the first time he just shook his head didnt even speak the word no.. This kid is clear, he hasent orken any laws, or school rules that we can see.

The kid with the camera, well hes iffier, the partriot act (or some oter subsequent one passed post 9/11) allows that the recording is legal, and even admissable evidence in court. so no foul there. ill grant that the local school may forbid camcorders, jsut as most hightech devices like cellphones pages and gameboys are forbiden. so he could be in the wrong on that count but again ten days suspension is pretty extream.

so ill say it again. You may not like it, or agree with it, but these kids did noting illegal, their teacher did. those are plan blatant and unarguable facts.

furthermore unless im mistaken you CANNOT legal be forced to stand for the anthem if you dont bloody well want to.

i feel like a broken record here reiterating this time and again what is so hard to grasp? the teacher sactions are illeagl, schools do not allow corporal punisment in that state. teh studients actions were NOT illegal. you may think hes pathetic for not standing and thats your opinion, but you know waht? i bet he couldnt care less, he likely was simply reiusing to stand because they wanted to from their teacher would go off the deepend for the stupidest reasons.

[silverDistortioN]

just for the record, flag burning isn't banned in the US (according to supreme court rulings, namely texas v. johnson). unless, of course, it puts others in danger of physical harm.

[TheDragonKnight]

oh reallly? Sweet, go silver, i appoint thee US legal code advisor to the fourms :D

[Lord Draud]

i never ment that last bit as a insult i was just noteing that you genarly don't make leaps you like to follow in a linier(sp) method even if you just doing it in your head and it looks like your leaping ( see i did listen to you when you told me about your math teachers). hmm i could have sworn it was illigal but thanks silver, maybe i should have been clearer i was makeing my posts in the mind set of what i see as a american, i understand why the teacher would get up set at the kid for not standing even more so if the teacher has a military background. and i checked with the schools near here and it game boys and cell phone are banned in the class rooms not the school its self

[TheDragonKnight]

damn i told you that long ago.

the point is however waht ever we might FEEL about this kid and his behavor, or the teacher, legaly the teacher broke the law, and the studen has not (though im cetianly willing to admit he may have been in violation of his schools rules, even if he was 10 days is damn harsh)

We have even cited the various laws that apply here.

i ahve to say i never thought id like anything about the patriot act but it if helps deep six this teacher it will have actuly served a decent pourpse in my opinion.

[Lord Draud]

in the end its not up to us it up to them (grin and you know whi they are ) and in the end they will do what they want

[Blade Tanaka]

check again, not being proud of your country isnt a crime! hell! were talking about highschool students i doubt hes politicaly motivated about this.

im happy for you that your proud of your country, thats good, your even prouder of your current leader, which is debatable, but again another topic, unless you can pull some miraclous terrorist connections out your ass linking these students to the WTC events or something i can only say your statments still lack anything in the way of facts, or even intelligence. you may not like the fact that he doesnt want to stand, BUT IF HE DOESNT WANT TO, ITS HIS CHOICE
Well I hope you're not Amarican =P. And I'm surprisd you'd talk about national freedom and taking pride in your country. If you have no vaules like this then where ae you going to go? And what are people going to think of you? I'm not saying this to be rude and up front. But what are your values? The things I've heared you say on these threads have no moral, are attacking and crude, condesending, and What I'd say to be Inapropreate. Please try to be nicer in the future. I have standards I like to maintain while haveing a discussion because some of the people I talk son't really seem to care about waht I have to say. All they go by is facts and rules. My buggest problem with people theese days is just that they are often inconsiderate adn never seem to follow their consionses and hearts. Wich just seem to add up more and more problems. (btw thatnk you for saying I am proud of my country... That's the nicest thing I've heard you say yet =P) ^o^

(I have more things to say but I have to go now sorry)

[silverDistortioN]

at this point, i would like to take the opportunity to encourage the next poster to address the topic at hand and not other members' arguably poor form.

[TheDragonKnight]

I am Canadian! and im am quite proud of my country, presonaly i stood during the anthem, hell msot of hte time my class was singing along until we hit highschool :P

im sorry if you saw me citing the relavent laws as an opinion, i also feel its sad that somone can ahve no pride in their country, however the US constitution protects a US citezens rights and frredoms, including somones right to be an asshole or an idiot, or not stand. Even if bush is taking away those freedoms slowly (thank you patriot act, fourtunately in my country, im still entitled to due process and all those fun thinsg like legal council and formal charges. and it would take a hell of a lot more than one mans whim to remove those rights from me.)

who knows maybe the kid had a law class the previous semester and read the patriot act, i know if i was american something like that would take away my pride in my country.

his reasons aside and weather or not we like them, you must admit his actions are legal at least, while the teachers are not.

while i woudl agree its great if someone can be proud of their country and its sad if you cant, im not going to go extreams adn say taht if hes not proud of his country he must be a terrorist, that kind of logic only works in what ever world bush spends most of his time in.

Im not singeling out the US i bad mouth my own leaders as well, its just taht liek it or not bush has jsut done alot more worth badmouthing (or at least done it in newsworthy ways)

[Blade Tanaka]

at this point, i would like to take the opportunity to encourage the next poster to address the topic at hand and not other members' arguably poor form.
Sorry Silver I was just anoyed that this was turning into some what of a "heated descusion". And good Dragon Knight you are some what humanhttp://www.rpgamers.info/images/smilies/bigeyes.gif.
However I see that you failed to notice that in one of my posts I contrated my "terrrorism" stament. personally I find that my possision is more of an argument of morals and not of laws. Schools have rules one of them more than likely to stand for your national anthem. And to respect such things as this. And if you disobay these rules you should be punished. When I said "The student should be punished" I didn't really mean by law I meant by the school system.

[TheDragonKnight]

aye no i didnt notice sorry, but i think somethign simillar still applies, i think it would be unconstitional to force someoen to stand, by law or by local rules, im certianly willing to agre that most would want to stand, however some may not.

The US protects your right even your right to be an ashole if you want, an exchance studient would not be an american citizen and may not want to stand, likewise they may be so proud of their home country that they will ONLY stand for their own anthem.

i'll even agree that the studient shoul receive soem punisment (making your teachers look like the biggest idiot since bush is bad for the school) but i dont think he should be punished for not standing.

HOWEVER if the values his parents are attempting to instill in him would includ standing for the anthem then i think it would be their provice to disciplin the boy, noone elses.

[Blade Tanaka]

yes Indeed. Unfortunatly the Amercain do protect you when you do wan't to be an asshole (note their whole "sue the B******" slogan nearly written all over them.) However The bet case to solve his attitude I guess would have to be some sort of Disapline.

Also If nobody minds I'd also like to request for proper puntuationand caps on sertain letters if it woulden't be to much. I wrote an english test today and found some of the "i agree we shouldent" stuff finding it's way into my writting. It's starting to get to me so please resist. I don't mind miss-speled words (since I am a horrible speller myself) but this is a little too much. ^o^

[TheDragonKnight]

Heh my evil typoness is infectious. :D

"Human though it so pervasive it's looked upon as an infectious disease. Kinda makes you feel proud doesn't it?"

[Blade Tanaka]

Yup and I think you didn't even make any mistakes there... good jobby:amazed: !!! ^o^ (oh wai I spoted one it instead of is... ahh well)

[Lord Draud]

i was the typo king but i think i might be geting better, i donno maybe not if all esle fails i guess ican plan TDK's typing ......:)

[Blade Tanaka]

Heh heh poor you... I was the non-spelling wizard of the Northern Crater Message board before everyon suddenly decided to stop posting there in my abscence.. I never did get to say a proper good bye to everyone...:bawl:

[TheDragonKnight]

wandering waaay off topic here guys, anyone care to post on topic?

[Blade Tanaka]

... sorry it's not like anyone has posted here latly anyway... heh heh ^o^