Death and the Ethical Implications Thereof

[silverDistortioN]

first question...

suppose a person is a serial killer or child molester or rapist.
...on second thought, suppose a person has tendences of a serial killer or child molester or rapist.

suppose he seeks sexual pleasure from killing another, and suppose he knows this is wrong. suppose he can't seek medical attention or some other form of help for whatever arbitrary reason.

now... should this person take his own life?

[pikatsu]

A kid in the school I work at strung himself up yesterday...

No, it's not a solution for anything...

[silverDistortioN]

why not and/or what would you rather him do?

[pikatsu]

Get help, of course.

[silverDistortioN]

and what if this person could not get help, as we had originally supposed?

[jetblue]

He should never commit suicide.
If thats what he feels deep inside of him he should accept what he is. Not as a monster but what the gods designed him for.
There is no help. Medically mabey some drugs but that only pacifys. How can you cure your destiny?
He should realize that eventually his actions will lead to his own death.
A vigilante mob or one of his victims will be stronger than him. This is probably how he is meant to die. Mabey he should consider joining an army where killing and raping of the enemy is rewarded.

If he rejects his destiny to a point of killing himself he should consider what others have done. Isolate himself in a land where few humans live or get a freind to cut off his...offending organ,and see where that leads him.
But remember the punishment for defying the gods is extended life and insanity.

I hope this person finds peace with what he is. Human life has so many varietys.

[silverDistortioN]

(it was just a hypothetical situation... in case you thought i was homi-/suicidal or something.)

so what makes suicide so much more dreadful than war, then? or any other relatively socially acceptable method of killing, for that matter...

edit: i put homo instead of homi. XD
...................... >.>

[jetblue]

Suicide is extreamly difficult. Humans are very self preserving.
Even a samurai needs assistance in sipaku.
At the moments before death the person commiting suicide will try to save his own life.
Personaly I am superstitious. If I were to comit suicide right now I will probably be a ghost for all eternity. Or end up in tartarus re-liveing the act over and over. Or my being will dissolve into a million particles.




I forgot,did you hear on the news the other day about those japanese suicide internet packs? What I dont understand is do they belive they will be reincarnated to a better living situation or are they just giving up?

[oneforthelord]

first question...

suppose a person is a serial killer or child molester or rapist.
...on second thought, suppose a person has tendences of a serial killer or child molester or rapist.

suppose he seeks sexual pleasure from killing another, and suppose he knows this is wrong. suppose he can't seek medical attention or some other form of help for whatever arbitrary reason.

now... should this person take his own life?
You haven't really defined just how strong his tendencies are, because if they are not that strong one could just ignore them. However, if they are strong to the point of obsession, then yes, one would need to seek a way to solve it.

To the point about suicide: One could propose a sort of arbitrary point scheme to determine whether he should suicide or not. Suppose it goes (very simplified) like this:

Benefit to society from his death:
-No murders from him = +20
-No rapes = +20
-No molests = +20

Loss to society from his death
-Potential contribution to society = -5
-Stigma of area where he suicides = -10
-Problems of cleaning up after he suicides = -5

And so on and so forth. Then one could easily determine (albeit very coldly) whether or not he should suicide or not.

Of course on a more personal I would say he should not suicide at all. He can just turn himself into the police (unless you disallow that as well).

[silverDistortioN]

the problem with that is putting a quantitative value on a qualitative attribute...
but i suppose that's beside the point.

and how insane he was is put implicitly: he hasn't killed anyone yet, but he probably will. if it's a matter to you of how people he'd kill, he wouldn't really know either (which is a significant part of the point).

when i said he couldn't get help, it was more of a tool to ponder the qualifications of suicide...
which i suppose leads us to the next question: when is suicide justified and why?

[Hierlark16]

My mom has always told me that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. There is no problem that can't be helped, so I can't really answer this scenario based on the validity of the scenario in itself. However... suicide is just not the answer. It is truly horrifying. They do it because they think it is their only option but it certainly is not. There is always help.
Suicide just isn't justifiable. There is a huge difference between self-sacrifice to save your friend's lives or something and killing yourself because you're too depressed. Suicide is mostly caused by depression (about 95%) and can be treated.
Sometimes people say it's their body or their life and they can do whatever they want with it, but things like suicide devastate families and overwhelm them. There was a gay highschool stuent who committed suicide in our city because he felt desparity about his homosexuality. It is so sad to think that some people will actually kill themselves because they feel as they won't be accepted or they'll be victims of violence due to their lifestyle.

[silverDistortioN]

funny... i was watching CSI the other day, and there was this kid who killed his little sister...

you see, he was relying on his sister to keep him alive because he was suffering from kidney failure. but he realized what his sister was doing was keeping her from living a happy life... so he decided to end her misery.

when he was asked why he killed his sister instead of himself, he said suicide is an unforgivable sin in the eyes of god. funny thing is, he was going to end up dying in a few months anyway.


whether or not the scenario (my scenario, not CSI's) is realistic or not is a moot point. it's intended only as a tool to further our understanding, not a benchmark for determining when we should go kill ourselves.

...what i want to know is why it is necessarily acceptable to pump a man full of lead (against his will, no doubt) in an act of war while suicide is inherently devoid of any shred of morality whatsoever. why do we watch the news and shrug off all the innocent deaths as if those individuals had never been born while we condemn those who actually *want* to die to an eternity of hellfire?

(just for future reference, and i'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but disparity isn't the same thing as despair. just in case you have to write a paper any time soon, i suppose. >.>)

[Hierlark16]

Point taken Silver, but to answer your question, I think nations glorify wars not only to make the deaths of soldiers more honorable, but the deaths of the enemies to seem more nonplusing. Besides, I'm not sure I've ever heard of that many people condemning suicide as a religious crime... maybe I'm wrong. I do think that the death of innocent people is more saddening than suicides we hear about.

[Zedie9]

...what i want to know is why it is necessarily acceptable to pump a man full of lead (against his will, no doubt) in an act of war while suicide is inherently devoid of any shred of morality whatsoever.
The two are not mutually exclusive, and such an assumption should not be made. I, at least, find war to be as morally bereft, even when such human 'interaction' is necessary. :spin:

[silverDistortioN]

The two are not mutually exclusive, and such an assumption should not be made.what, are you talking about people who kill themselves in an act of war? and which assumption? ...i'll try to address what i think you might mean... >.>

war might not inherently imply human casualties (eg. a good portion of the cold war), but pumping a man full of lead in an act of war would. and if pumping a man full of lead in an act of war were not acceptable, at least by a majority of the world's (that is, each nation's) population, then there would be no way for one country to successfully declare war on another (assuming said country is not stupid).

[Zedie9]

:) The assumption that everyone thinks it is necessarily acceptable to pump a man full of lead (against his will, no doubt) in an act of war while suicide is inherently devoid of any shred of morality whatsoever. One might be pro-war and anti-suicide; one might be pro-both or anti-both; one might be anti-war and pro-suicide. :spin:

[silverDistortioN]

oh, well they don't have to be mutually exclusive. it was a more of a question, not an assumption.

if it were an assumption, i would be the first to point out how wrong it is, seeing as i don't hold those beliefs myself.

[Zedie9]

:) I point it out not because I think you feel that way, but because I thought the question was phrased in such a way as to imply mutual exclusivity. Or something like that. ;)

[Astrolounge]

For the purpose of this topic I feel I have to use an old saying that I don't like much...
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."

Man I really don't like opening with that, but it's the best I could do...

[Lord Draud]

i know that due to my lack of moral and ethical sence i am not one to realy be taken very seriorsly on thia matter but whats wrong with killing some one that broke the law? or for that matter will break the law and is unwilling to change? as for suicide jeezes people would you rather he went out and did someithng so he would die? its been known to happen its called suicide by police i say if your so willing to off your self do it and don't involve anyone else in it, it is something others won't understand just remember don't do something you will regreet cause if done right there is no going back ( i know cause i was depressed and though a long time about it)

[Astrolounge]

A boy at our school commited scuidide because he was clinically depressed. There is a tree planted in front of the school with a plaque on it in his memory. Deppesion suicide I think is meaningless, suicide from someone who kills, and rapes people however, is not something I am going to morn.

[Lord Draud]

is it realy meaningless?, some say that depresstion is just one person finding out the truth, i know cause i am taking meds for my depresstion but be for all this warm fuzzy feeling i was a clear thinker like what does our life matter? in 400 years unless you do something fucking increadible whats i gonna matter? who is gonna remember you? you family? let me ask you this do you know the name of your ancesters? what did they do with there lifes? me now that i am full of good feeling i am thinking who care i am doing it for ME!

[Astrolounge]

Oddly enough, I DO know alot about my ancestors. But yes for most people they would be faceless shades of the past.

[TrueSephiroth]

He has a good point about that. Ksaa is taking similar meds for his own clinical depression. I don't have clinical depression self diagnosed or otherwise. I get deppressed about the truth that there is no point to life in all reality. I don't believe in anything at all as far as gods and the like are concerned. I have no reason to live besides these two: What little drive I have including what few aspirations for my future I have and my family. I think its only fair that these nice people not be miserable due to my non existense.

And one more thing for all you believers in a higher power: if there is such a god(s) that created this universe and us then they created it all for the fun of it and with no purpose but to watch us squirm when something bad happens.
If said god(s) exist then we are sea monkeys!

[Astrolounge]

I have no wish to be remembered at all, All I really give a damn about is enjoying my life to the fullest, and by that I mean descovering new ways I could get myself killed, why just the other day I was opening hummeroos and putting the powder into my sword sheath, The IDEA was to try to get the sheath to super heat the blade before a fight.
That was the IDEA remember, after rigging it up (in what was likely a far more complicated way than was nececary) I fired it up and... Suprise suprise, as you might expect. It exploded! Besides hurling me to the ground and launching my blade a fair distance, all that was hurt was the sheath and my right arm.
But well, bones heal and time moves on.
Maybe if I layer the powder so it burns like the firework would normally...

Anyway, the point is I don't fear death at all really, or worry if life has meaning, or if there is something beyond.
And to those who are depressed, do try to keep cheerful, I'm sure there are people who would miss you if you were gone.

[Lord Draud]

HA they would miss my DMing skills and my books i think the only person who would give a damn would be grim but me and him are so alike i know he would see my death as something to learn from and remember as a way not to go, i hate my family and they me we barly tolerate seeing each other and i have no drive for the future....but then again i forgot my meds today lol

[Astrolounge]

I would miss you if you were gone,
and I have never actually met you.
If that counts for anything.

[jetblue]

Yeah me to.http://www.rpgamers.info/images/smilies/smile.gif

I think I need some meds. When I get depressed I dont eat. Sometimes for weeks. The longest was almost 2 months. I barely ate anything this week. No appetite. Something's bothering me but dont know what.

[Zeugma 440]

OMG, how can you possibly go on living when you don't eat for 2 months ?
You're drinking sodas and eating junk food all day long, so that you can survive without making a decent lunch ?

*sighs* Depressed people seem always kind of fascinating to me...

[jetblue]

It was back when I was 17. I did drink sodas and some chocolate milk here and there. I was super thin I think my pant size went down to 26. I remeber my freinds pressing on my stomache trying to feel my spine,it would tickle. I did'nt feel weak and had lots of energy.
It funny when I remeber what broke the cycle. I was passing by a steak house and the smell of cooking meat drove me nuts. I ate alot of steak and had a tummy ache.




!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAPPY HANUKKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lord Draud]

lol when i get realy down i EAT, i just take things that tast good and mix them up, like waffles icecream and jam

[Astrolounge]

Mmmm... Ice Wafjamcream...

[Lord Draud]

lol i forgot to add i some times put chocolate chips on it as well but befor i ut on the ice cream then i nke he whole thing for 15 seconds

[Astrolounge]

Ok... So it's partially melted, chocolate iced wafjamcream.
The idea remains the same.
Only now it has gooey, chocolaty goodness.
.................................................. .
Mmmm... Gooey chocolaty goodness...

PS: 15 seconds? But I want a heart attack now!