Torrents on RPGN? Whats your opinion?

[Locke Cole]

Hey all,

I've been considering adding the option of torrents to RPGN for ages now, but it has come time to decide if it would be at all a good idea. Would you make use of them? The mirrors would still be available, the torrents would simply be another method of sharing the music.

Torrents are logically faster and easier to download an album, as there is no waiting to get into the server, and everyone is helping send the file out a little. It sounds like a win-win situation, however....

A torrent is reliant on atleast one user to seed a file so that everyone can complete their download. If we cannot find enough loyal users to seed our torrents, they won't last very long.

I have been unable to share VGM for the past 30 months due to bandwidth restrictions and problems with my local ISPs, however there is now a chance for me to try and give back again. Seeding a few new albums every week is very possible for me using a new provider I have found, and I plan to signup with them if we decide this would be a good move for our site.

We will need to put up our own torrent tracker as well as decide on a method of formatting our files that are put up (filename formatting, file type? etc). Do we want to put the album into single RAR file? Torrent it as a folder, with all the files inside? These are all things to consider.

Feel free to add your views and comments on this idea.

[Kilu]

When compared to other vgm sites that share via torrent, the good side of this would be the fact that you could share some older albums that aren't easy to comeby nowadays.

A good way would be to send the data to couple good seeders before putting it up in the tracker, and thus having 3 seeds to begin with. This way no one needs to superseed, and other people will get the file faster, and hopefully seed.

Biggest issue will obviously be the usage. Will there be enough users and will they seed? There is always a possibility for monitoring share ratios and ban people who don't give back. Obviously not immediately, because some connections (like mine) can upload only so slow compared to the downloading speed. But if after given time the person continues to leech and keep the upload to minimum...ban. Maybe put some sort of limit to the ratio that would need to be met. Also a possibility for enabling some sort of registering and only allow registered users to use the tracker. This would reduce the number of random leechers, but could also prevent lazy bums (just like me :D ) but potential good seeders from participating.

Someone would probably need to write a mini tutorial for torrent usage as well. Or just link to an existing one, I'm sure there are some.

As for the format and stuff... I personally would prefer single files in a folder with info and maybe sfv. This way, if someone is missing only one song from the album that is seeded, they could prioritaze and download only the one song that they need. It would be a pain to download whole rar pack if I would only need one song. Most likely mp3 would be a good, well known, popular format, though I'm not against any other. It just seems that some people are format nazis :p Using mp3s would also prevent stupid questions like "hw can i ple thise msucs? itis nt wokrin. ITS BRUKKEN! U SUXXORS!"

As for filename, I personally use format like "xXX songtitle.ext" where 'x' is the disc number if the album has multiple discs, 'XX' is the track number and the rest should be self explanatory. Tag format that I have come to use recently:
http://205.209.144.11/hosting/userfiles/Kilu/tag.jpg

Where the composer/s reside in the artist field, possible singer or instrument player or whatever as (feat. blaablaa) after the title and vgm album name is as you see it there. NOT ALL CAPS LIKE SOME OF THE MOTOI~ ALBUMS ARE. As you see, I also put the Original Soundtrack, Premium Arrange, Super Duper Double Extra Fun Album Turbo is in [] after the actual album name. Couple good examples would be Dark Chronicle [Premium Arrange], Biohazard 3 ~ Last Escape [Original Soundtrack], Chrono Cross [Original Soundtrack] and Hitman ~Contracts~ [Promotional Sound Track]. Some may hate that style though :) And as you can see, my tas are minimalistic. I personally don't need all the information that some provide, but I don't mind if it's there, I can always remove it :p

Anyway, I'm just throwing all this out there.

[Zeugma 440]

Will there be enough users and will they seed? IMO, the best is to make a request board, so that we are sure that the albums we provide are downloaded. If we put random stuff that one or two random members find cool, I'm not sure that it will get its public among the RPGN visitors.

. I personally would prefer single files in a folder with info and maybe svf I assume you're talking about SFV files :p

On the overall, I agree with Kilu about the format, tags and packaging issues. I would also add that IMO, one torrent for one album/related albums is better than one torrent containing several unrelated OSTs.

[Lucky 7]

Never heard 'bout this stuff, but if it works: cool. If it doesn't: suckage.

Actually, this has caught my curiosity. Anyone willing to explain this in a nutshell?

And on an unrelated note: :dance:LEVEL UP!!:dance:

[Kilu]

In a nutshell. (http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/introduction.html)

[Lucky 7]

Damn, that is sweet. Go for it. Thats all I got to say.

[Kaze Nigai]

The single format is probably the best way to go. I have one thing that I feel would be better than one folder. For OSTs with multiple disks, multiple folders.

Instead of "xXX-title.mp3" I think "x - title name.mp3" Would be better.

Other than that little nit-pick, wich may indeed be too picky, I agree 100% with everything Kilu said.

:D Torrents are great!

[pikatsu]

I figured I'd pass suggesting torrents, since the trackers and such seem to be in perilous situations recently, atleast in the anime front.

But otherwise, I'm all for it.

[Zeugma 440]

the trackers and such seem to be in perilous situations recently, atleast in the anime front.
Huh ? Anime fansub releases don't seem to slow down, as far as I know :wonder: Do you have any example, Pikatsu ?

[Zedie9]

Some may hate that style though :) And as you can see, my tas are minimalistic. I personally don't need all the information that some provide, but I don't mind if it's there, I can always remove it :p
:ponder: Why bother removing tag information the ripper/encoder has bothered to add in there? It's not as if it being there hurts you or adds significantly to filesize or anything... Changing filenames to suit personal preference I understand, but radically changing perfectly good tags...? :p

And on that note - The single format is probably the best way to go. I have one thing that I feel would be better than one folder. For OSTs with multiple disks, multiple folders.

Instead of "xXX-title.mp3" I think "x - title name.mp3" Would be better.
I agree. Personally, I use the 01.Song Title - Artist naming scheme, with any 'featuring' or guest performers in that place. (Composers go in the composer field in the tags, some soundtracks being an exception. :p ) Nevertheless, I've never understood the desire to dump all the files from multiple disc soundtracks into one large folder. Separating by disc makes much more sense to me. :bouncy:

[Kilu]

:ponder: Why bother removing tag information the ripper/encoder has bothered to add in there? It's not as if it being there hurts you or adds significantly to filesize or anything... Changing filenames to suit personal preference I understand, but radically changing perfectly good tags...? :p
Because they are not perfectly good, they never are. I always retag any albums I get my hands on. With few exceptions of course. And while I'm tagging, I remove the data I don't need. If there is too much information on the tag and when I look at, I feel my head is going to explode. Not really. I think it's aesthetically more pleasing not to have all that data in there.

01.Song Title - Artist naming scheme, with any 'featuring' or guest performers in that place.
As we are speaking of vgm, and quite often vgm has more than one composer, this will create too damn long filenames. Too damn long meaning, over joliet stantard, resulting in cut filenames if one decided to burn them on disc. And I for one find cut filenames quite annoying.

Nevertheless, I've never understood the desire to dump all the files from multiple disc soundtracks into one large folder. Separating by disc makes much more sense to me.
Separating by filename is all the separation I personally need. I have no good reason for it though, I just like it better. Aesthetics again.

[OutcastedNomad]

I will say that Torrents are good and a list like what GameMP3 does (save it will be in the forums ) however we should set the seed count to 1 - 1.5 or 24 hours of inactivity as most torrents die because of this the three seed structure is a great idea to keep it alive but we also should have a common list that will be hosted that Month and will Rotate via a weekly update. Also a request page that will tell what will be out next week. also if you need a Seeder ( or a Reseeder ) I do that normally for some apps and games that are Free ( linux stuff mostly ) but I have stopped as of late as My trackers kept crashing My router. also if we go this route maybe we should think about having Both a compressed ( be it zip or Rar or 7-zip, it doesn't matter as most people here can get the decompresser fairly easy ) and single files. I say this will allow for more seeder to appear as they can host the zip and people can stay in the queue longer and contribute more. Burst (http://krypt.dyndns.org:81/torrent/index.phtml) is a great client that has the plugin ability to make torrents. Just My .02

[Zedie9]

Because they are not perfectly good, they never are. I always retag any albums I get my hands on. With few exceptions of course. And while I'm tagging, I remove the data I don't need. If there is too much information on the tag and when I look at, I feel my head is going to explode. Not really. I think it's aesthetically more pleasing not to have all that data in there.:D Obviously, if the tags contain incorrect information, I also correct them. I'm saying I don't see the point in removing correct information from the other fields. If I've bothered to enter the composer, encoder, ripper, album serial number, et al, I see no logical reason for you to remove it - just your personal preference. :p


As we are speaking of vgm, and quite often vgm has more than one composer, this will create too damn long filenames. Too damn long meaning, over joliet stantard, resulting in cut filenames if one decided to burn them on disc. And I for one find cut filenames quite annoying. :D There are several options for this. Nero always asks me what I want to rename the file before it cuts anything, so that's not a problem. If the filename is too long because of multiple composers, I edit the filename to include only their last names, and if this is still too long, I try to list the main composers or as many as possible - after all, all the information is already in the tags, which is what they exist for in the first place. ;) I suppose it all boils down to personal preference, but I spend a lot of time tagging my rips with correct information, so of course I don't like hearing that half of it is arbitrarily deleted. :p

[Kilu]

:D Obviously, if the tags contain incorrect information, I also correct them. I'm saying I don't see the point in removing correct information from the other fields. If I've bothered to enter the composer, encoder, ripper, album serial number, et al, I see no logical reason for you to remove it - just your personal preference. :p
There is no logic behind that, and I never claimed there to be. As I said, it looks better for me.

:D There are several options for this. Nero always asks me what I want to rename the file before it cuts anything, so that's not a problem. If the filename is too long because of multiple composers, I edit the filename to include only their last names, and if this is still too long, I try to list the main composers or as many as possible - after all, all the information is already in the tags, which is what they exist for in the first place. ;) I suppose it all boils down to personal preference
As far as the filenames go, there should only one naming structure. Naming one set with composers full name, second with last names and third with one name of the two composers (for example) is ugly and inconsistent. Therefore composer names doesn't need to be in there, because, as you said, they have a good place in the tags.

So, I propose that we either use '01 title.mp3' or '01.title.mp3'. I personally prefer the first one, but in the end it really doesn't matter to me. Because I use Tag & Rename.

but I spend a lot of time tagging my rips with correct information, so of course I don't like hearing that half of it is arbitrarily deleted. :p
Better learn to live with it :p

Seriously though, what do you do with albums catalogue number or copyright info? What good use do you have for it? Because I can't think of any.

[Locke Cole]

I actually use the filename format "01 - Trackname.mp3". I have a mass file renamer for all those albums I get that are named differently, as its a pain in the butt reformatting 1000's of files to fit one type of naming scheme. I always put multi-disc albums into folders (one folder per disc) and thats probably how the albums will be when I seed them. As for ID3 tags, I usually have the ID3v1 tags filled out, however personally, most of my collection has the v2 tags wiped. Either the music was obtained well before v2 was popular, or they just never contained the data. At this point I don't plan to spend the next 2 months retagging every album I have, so I'll just pretty up the ones I seed before they go online, if this plan ever takes motion.

Right now I'm looking into the torrent tracker program, and how it works.

[bluedragonx]

I guess I'm the only one that outright HATES ID3 tags on mp3s. Whenever there is one, I just delete it because I only want to see the filename of the song, not some ID3 tag. The reason being that I always put time into how my music files are named, making them the best that I want them to be.

For regular music, this is how my files naming goes.

artist name - album name - (disc number-)track number - track name.mp3

Here is if for VGM:

abbreviated album name - (disc number-)track number - track name. mp3

**(disc number-) is there if the album is multiple discs (without the brackets, of course).

The folders those tracks are in are fully named instead of abbreviated.

[Zedie9]

As far as the filenames go, there should only one naming structure. Naming one set with composers full name, second with last names and third with one name of the two composers (for example) is ugly and inconsistent. Therefore composer names doesn't need to be in there, because, as you said, they have a good place in the tags.:D Well, I'll clarify. I put the performer in the filename, because I prefer it there when I'm listening to my random list in my car or old mp3 player. I sometimes put the composer in the performer field, like with Elfman's scores, instead of whichever orchestra performed it. So far, I haven't run out of room in the filename often enough to be overly concerned with using only surnames, but on the unusual occasion in which I am forced to, I personally find it neither ugly nor inconsistent, as I like the system and foloow my own personal guidelines each time (and I'm more consistent than the tags I DL, naturally, since everyone uses his or her own system.) ;)

So, I propose that we either use '01 title.mp3' or '01.title.mp3'. I personally prefer the first one, but in the end it really doesn't matter to me. Because I use Tag & Rename.:D Same here. As well as many mp3s are tagged nowadays, I nevertheless do edit them with tag & rename to fit my naming structure, and sometimes have to edit tags, as with the Spider-Man 2 Score... :angel:


Better learn to live with it :p:D Yah, yah, to each his own. I wasn't trying to persuade you, but there should never be only one opinion or option listed when there could be several. ;)

Seriously though, what do you do with albums catalogue number or copyright info? What good use do you have for it? Because I can't think of any.:D I don't often use the copyright field, actually - I'm sure I have before, but I don't remember the last time, offhand, and if I did, I'm sure I had a good reason for it (in my mind, if not yours :p). The catalog number I include as often as possible - it doesn't hurt to have as many identifiers as possible. Some releases of the same album have a different mastering esthetic; sometimes one mp3 strays from the fold and into a random folder or sometimes gets renamed beyond identification (Believe it or not, in my kazaa days, I came across tags with screwy artist and title fields, but intact catalog numbers, helping in identifying what I'd gotten instead of what I thought I'd gotten. ;)) *shrug* If nothing else, catalog number feels appropriate to me. Delete them if you don't like them; I can always add them if I do. ;)

[Kilu]

:D Same here. As well as many mp3s are tagged nowadays, I nevertheless do edit them with tag & rename to fit my naming structure, and sometimes have to edit tags, as with the Spider-Man 2 Score... :angel:
:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:
Those tags were perfect :p

[Zedie9]

:furious: :furious: :furious: :furious:
Those tags were perfect :p
:D I could say the same about some of mine that you say you changed, but instead I'll remind you of something else you said:

Get used to it. :p :rofl:

[Kilu]

:D I could say the same about some of mine that you say you changed, but instead I'll remind you of something else you said:

Get used to it. :p :rofl:

I don't have a problem with anyone changing my tags as I do it myself, but I'm wondering was it that needed changing? You don't like the [Original Motion Picture Score] part? :p

[daniel]

decided i hate torrents, i like ftp the best, more simple but ftp and bit torrent6 ok:) I'd rather just ftp though to be honest

[Zedie9]

I don't have a problem with anyone changing my tags as I do it myself, but I'm wondering was it that needed changing? You don't like the [Original Motion Picture Score] part? :p
:D Yes, I changed that. And didn't you have a featuring such-and-such as part of one of the song titles? I can't remember now... :wonder: Don't take my ribbing seriously - while you and I disagree on a few details of tags, I will readily admit that for the most part we agree and both strive for great tags, which is to say that I always know that even if I want to change some things as you have them tagged, I know the tags overall will be well done. :spin:

[Kilu]

:D Yes, I changed that. And didn't you have a featuring such-and-such as part of one of the song titles? I can't remember now... :wonder: Don't take my ribbing seriously - while you and I disagree on a few details of tags, I will readily admit that for the most part we agree and both strive for great tags, which is to say that I always know that even if I want to change some things as you have them tagged, I know the tags overall will be well done. :spin:

If you were fast and downloaded it before I could change the last songs tag and reupload it, it had Danny Elfman as artist and B.J. Thomas as featuring. That was before I noticed the grave error and removed Danny Elfman and put B.J. Thomas as artist instead. Funny how I actually listened to some other ost (Forest Gump ost I think) and noticed that 'damn, this is the exact same song, it can't be by Elfman' :) So yeah, Elfman didn't have anything to do with that song :)

And I never take you seriously :p :D

[bluedragonx]

There is one more thing I would like to add. We would have to decided what bitrate the mp3s should be. My suggestion would be to encode every mp3 in a constant 128 kbps and then link everybody to music converting programs like CDex and dBpowerAMP if they want to convert the mp3s they download themselves.

[Zeugma 440]

:wonder: Locke's albums are already encoded (except for a few CDs, I guess). IMO, it would be a pity to change their bitrate to 128 just to make the releases 'uniform'...

[Kilu]

Indeed. No need to change any bitrates, and if albums were to be reripped, I would like to see good vbr instead of 128cbr.

[Zedie9]

Indeed. No need to change any bitrates, and if albums were to be reripped, I would like to see good vbr instead of 128cbr.
:D I agree. There have been many debates here about which encoding method is the best, and the one thing we all decided was to each his or her own. ;)

Bear in mind, however, that in order to 'change' the bitrate of an mp3, you are essentially decompressing and recompressing it, which potentially cause quality loss. ;)

[Neo_Stythys]

C'mon, really...
VBR - you get bigger file sizes but, clearer quality
CBR - small file sizes (especially good for 56k users) but, lower quality at 128k

FTP - Can be left on, only a couple downloaders at a time, just hope that people will upload too.
Torrents - Seeds/ReSeeders sometimes die out, so everyone's losing, but when active, everyone is constantly uploading and downloading to everyone else.

ID3 Tags
You have the album, artist, composer, genre, catalog, and if using ID3v2 you have UPTO 255 fields, which you can name most of them! Use them for who actually played the instruments! Either way, most people i've found like the ID3 tags because it actually said more than what the name of the song is...

Also, for the naming...

Most tracks i've seen named like this:

C:\Final Fantasy VII\Disc I (OR 1, depends)\01 - Prelude.mp3

This is basically standard, 99.9% of people name them like this, or am I wrong?

Anyways, for a FTP server you need :
1) A Computer...
2) The Internet
3) FTP Server
4) Static IP (unless using No-IP, or something like it)

For Torrents,
1) Again, a computer
2) Also again, the internet
3) HTML server to serve as the tracker for a torrent
4) Seeders, otherwise you're all screwed

Any Questions?

[Kilu]

Any Questions?
Yes.

What was the point of that post? We all know the advantages/disadvantages of FTP and Torrent. We also know the advantages/disadvantages of vbr and cbr. We also know...everything you wrote in that post.

Makes me wonder if you even read the whole topic :ponder:

[Locke Cole]

We are aware of how an FTP and torrents work, we have run both before. We were trying to determine if it would be worthwhile to create some torrents for RPGN, however we worry not enough users would seed the albums.

[jetblue]

I can help seed. I seed all the time on this other site. We all take turns and make releases and reseed request's,etc.

[BAMAToNE]

In terms of operators' ease of use, I agree that torrents would be so much easier. We could, among us, come up with the best rip of a game we can (be it an official ost release or whatever), and then all agree to distribute that one in a torrent. However, assuming each operator has one to three torrents running at one time (torrents take up a lot of cpu power), that's only one to three albums. And if you lump them together, you force users to get albums they don't want. All in all, for our purposes, ftp is still the way to go.

However, we might could look into starting our own Direct Connect hub. I don't like VGM Central. It would be neat if we forewent the ftp servers and all jumped into a hub. Then it would be much easier for users to search us all at one time and queue up whatever albums they want. Any takers?

[Locke Cole]

Does anyone remember this thread? ;) After much consideration, and still being unable to run an FTP server, I have decided to give this a try. I learned about a bittorrent client called Azereus, which puts all of your active torrents to one window, and thus.. I thought I could probably handle seeding a bunch of albums for RPGN ^_^

I spent the last 3-4 days working with tracker software source code, and created a tracker for RPGN. It has a built in request system and ratio monitor, but currently does not enforce the ratios. It does require that the user register before downloading anything, this is to discourage "hit and run" downloaders who don't plan to seed. Plus, with everyone having their own account, we can keep track of who's helping out, and give some sort of perks to those who help seed.

Opinions? I haven't made the tracker public yet, as its still in the final stages of being configured and tested, however I am in need of testers. Drop by MSN (friskers@hotmail.com) or the RPGN Chatroom to be one of the first to test it out :P

[Kilu]

Well, I'm still all for it, but of course we need to set some sort of rules and stuff.

[BAMAToNE]

Thumbs up from me. I tested it last night after getting back from bowling - and I was still drunk. If I can register on the tracker and get it downloading drunk, anyone should be able to do it. :D

P.S. I can't believe it's been a whole year since we talked about this!

[Locke Cole]

Current mirror operators will get VIP status upon signup. Previous RPGN donors will also get their status recognized. These ranks have perks, as will be outlined as the tracker develops. :D

Currently, we are in need of some folks to prepare and seed our initial torrent files. The tracker has a built in request system, which will allow users to request albums for us to seed later.

About 600 bugs later, we've managed to weed out a lot of the problems, but I would like to continue testing for a few days as we prepare our initial files and setup staff/mods for the system. The rules also do need some tweaking.

A year eh? Well, what can I say... I'm slow <.<

[BAMAToNE]

I'll definitely seed some stuff. IM me about it when I get home.

[Thwyter]

Even though I'm missed out on the conversation, here is my view.

1. Torrents are better, unless there is no one to seed.
2. Remeber, this recently started, so there aren't gonna be many seeders at FIRST.
3. I already started to upload and seed one torrent.

[bluedragonx]

I don't know where I stand on this right now.

My usual mp3 standards are much different and the most unique amongst us that I probably won't be seeding much. Those standards being constant 128 kbps bitrate, tagless and a different filenaming system. So I probably would still be running my FTP.

But I also want to help better this site. Torrents would be good for this site, no doubt about it.

So yeah, I'm in a bind.

[Locke Cole]

I don't know where I stand on this right now.

My usual mp3 standards are much different and the most unique amongst us that I probably won't be seeding much. Those standards being constant 128 kbps bitrate, tagless and a different filenaming system. So I probably would still be running my FTP.

But I also want to help better this site. Torrents would be good for this site, no doubt about it.

So yeah, I'm in a bind.
128 tagless? My goodness. Well, you won't find any of those on our tracker I don't think. FTPs are not being obsoleted, this is simply a new method, a more active method, to allow users to help out with the site. Rather then a few users being dedicated servers, everyday visitors can now help with file distrobution. I do intend to keep the ftp servers around, but this is a wild stab at trying to bring back some of the users who have been waiting so long for some activity around these parts. Most of our servers are indeed dead, and I think this has a chance. Only time will tell.

[bluedragonx]

128 tagless? My goodness. Well, you won't find any of those on our tracker I don't think. FTPs are not being obsoleted, this is simply a new method, a more active method, to allow users to help out with the site. Rather then a few users being dedicated servers, everyday visitors can now help with file distrobution. I do intend to keep the ftp servers around, but this is a wild stab at trying to bring back some of the users who have been waiting so long for some activity around these parts. Most of our servers are indeed dead, and I think this has a chance. Only time will tell.
Well, I've thought about retagging my collection but that would take a really long time since most of my collection don't have tags; only recent additions do.

I've also thought about redownloading and recoding, but my usual renaming would take a long time too.

If you are wondering why I keep my mp3s at constant 128 kbps, I don't need a really high bitrate to enjoy the music. 128 has good enough quality for me because I usually don't play music way too loud (not like some people on the TTC). I also listen to my music on my mp3 CD player so I have to be mindful of space on each of my CDs. That bitrate is also the manufacturer's recommendation.

[Locke Cole]

Well, I've thought about retagging my collection but that would take a really long time since most of my collection don't have tags; only recent additions do.

I've also thought about redownloading and recoding, but my usual renaming would take a long time too.

If you are wondering why I keep my mp3s at constant 128 kbps, I don't need a really high bitrate to enjoy the music. 128 has good enough quality for me because I usually don't play music way too loud (not like some people on the TTC). I also listen to my music on my mp3 CD player so I have to be mindful of space on each of my CDs. That bitrate is also the manufacturer's recommendation.
I love the music loudness comment :P I love to play my vgm loud here at home :D Quality is not a big case for me either, many of my albums are 128, but I don't really stick to any set bitrate, I vary all over the place. Makes sense why you want to keep them sized down if using on a device such as that. :)

[BAMAToNE]

Anything I upload and seed is going to be VBR, either r3mix or alt preset standard. I've upped Star Ocean Perfect Sound Collection and Actraiser Symphonic Suite. Both very good. :D